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What do you think about DeepL?
Thread poster: kakapo77

David GAY  Identity Verified
Dutch to French
+ ...
not acceptable (at all) either Sep 13

"Separatorenfleisch": Fleisch, das durch mechanische Verfahren gewonnen wird aus fleischtragenden Knochen außer den Knochen des Kopf, die Extremitäten der Gliedmaßen unterhalb des Handwurzel- und Tarsalgelenks und bei Schweinen die Steißbeinwirbel, und bei Schweinen die Steißbeinwirbel, und bestimmt für gemäß Artikel 6 der Richtlinie zugelassene Betriebe
77/99/EWG (2 );

It seems DeepL has a good start but the end of the sentences are of the worst quality.It doesn't have the full command of German sentences...

[Modifié le 2017-09-13 11:21 GMT]

[Modifié le 2017-09-13 11:24 GMT]


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Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 23:02
Member
English to Italian
+ ...
:-) Sep 13

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Same thing with low rates, "discounts" for fuzzies, "mandatory" cat tools, absurd clauses in SLAs/NDAs, no minimum/rush fees, etc. etc. In other words, PEMT is here to stay, DeepL, ShallowL or whatever are just details.


I like a sprinkle of optimism from time to time...


Ahah, yeah, I know, right?

However it's hard to miss the cues even if you don't do PEMT, like me. For instance, a few years ago I did work (albeit only for a short while) for one of the (THE) biggest online retailers worldwide, and the rates were all in all acceptable, and no sign of PEMT in sight, while now, based on what I read on these fora and on a job I saw posted here a few months ago, they started to rely heavily on PEMT and dropped their rates (and I believe that type of content is not particularly well suited for MT)...

It's a trend, unfortunately, and we lack the unity of purpose, or even the mere will, to counter it (with stances that range from mere indifference to open enthusiasm...). IMHO professional associations could at least take some little steps in this respect, but they too seem unwilling to act, when not more or less openly embracing this "evolution"(?), thing which I find quite baffling...


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:02
Member (2004)
English to Italian
I'm less pessimistic... Sep 13

I do believe that, when we'll start to see the real detriment to our profession, then we will unite and defeat the monster...

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kakapo77
France
Local time: 23:02
French to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
You raised a very good point Sep 13

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Maurice Koopman wrote:

The tender was maybe not such a good idea. Therefor change of text. It is not as good as the tender translation, but in my opinion still sufficient to go straight to PE. I am impressed with it because most of the sentences are grammatically correct. The terminology may be faulty at some point, but the structure of the sentence is most of the time good.

So you believe that a translation agency will hire you to translate this text from scratch when DeepL delivers this?


AFAIK, a great deal of Linguee's corpora is made up of EU stuff, so it's only natural it may deal better with that kind of texts, also considering that its language is quite formulaic and repetitive, therefore naturally more suited to a MT engine than, for instance, creative content.

Also, about a past post of yours:

You say that "it's up to us to say no". Do you really think that things work this way?


They WOULD definitely work IF there was consensus. It's not unthinkable. Take as an example unions, associations, and every group that is able to pursue a common goal... The "market economy" is not an unquestionable truth and is definitely not infallible (as we all know quite well, I believe...), and needs correctives in order not to trample everything and everyone in its path, otherwise it would just be down to the 'survival of the fittest' or 'the law of the jungle'...


****
Hello Mirko,

You raised a very good point. If it were possible to have translators' unions, that will be of course a way to correct the trends we observe today.

I have never written that the market economy is unquestionable, I rather think it should be questioned. And, to some extent, we are seeing more and more people questioning it.

But the world of translation is almost totally made up of freelancers, which are difficult to unionize. In places like California there are trying to implement unions for freelancers, but at present there is still a lack of consensus about how to deal with that.

Have a nice day,

Marco


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David GAY  Identity Verified
Dutch to French
+ ...
complete nonsense Sep 13

Diese Richtlinie berührt nicht etwaige Beschränkungen, die in folgenden Fällen auferlegt werden Einhaltung der allgemeinen Bestimmungen des Vertrags über den Einzelhandel Verkauf von Fleisch aus Einhufern.

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Phyllis Elago  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:02
French to English
+ ...
My two cents Sep 13


****
Hello Mirko,

You raised a very good point. If it were possible to have translators' unions, that will be of course a way to correct the trends we observe today.

I have never written that the market economy is unquestionable, I rather think it should be questioned. And, to some extent, we are seeing more and more people questioning it.

But the world of translation is almost totally made up of freelancers, which are difficult to unionize. In places like California there are trying to implement unions for freelancers, but at present there is still a lack of consensus about how to deal with that.

Have a nice day,

Marco


I don't think it is possible or even beneficial to unionise because we are not employees. We seem the same, all "translators", but actually we are each very different businesses offering different kinds and levels of value. I think it is better to leverage the flexibility of being an independent entity to adapt to the changes taking place. If we take the trouble to do this, we will be all the more valuable and connected to our customers.


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Jorge Payan  Identity Verified
Colombia
Local time: 16:02
Member (2002)
German to Spanish
+ ...
Good enough for PEMT to Spanish Sep 14



From EU

This Directive lays down health rules for the production and placing on the market of fresh meat intended for human consumption from domestic animals of the following species: bovine animals (including the species Bubalus bubalis and Bison bison), swine, sheep and goats, and domestic solipeds.
2. This Directive shall not apply to the cutting and storage of fresh meat performed in retail shops or in premises adjacent to sale points, where the cutting and storage are performed solely for the purpose of supplying the consumer directly on the spot.
3. This Directive shall apply without prejudice to specific Community rules on minced meat.
4. This Directive shall not affect any restrictions imposed, in compliance with the general provisions of the Treaty, on the retail sale of meat from solipeds.
Article 2
For the purposes of this Directive:
(a) ‘meat’ means all parts of domestic bovine animals (including the species Bubalus bubalis and Bison bison), swine, sheep, goats and solipeds which are suitable for human consumption;
(b) ‘freshmeat’ means meat, including meat vacuum-wrapped or wrapped in a controlled atmosphere, which has not undergone any treatment other than cold treatment to ensure preservation;
(c) ‘mechanically recovered meat’ means meat obtained by mechanical means from flesh-bearing bones apart from the bones of the head, the extremities of the limbs below the carpal and tarsal joints and, in the case of swine, the coccygeal vertebrae, and intended for establishments approved in accordance with Article 6 of Directive 77/99/EEC (2);


DeepL:

La presente Directiva establece las normas sanitarias aplicables a la producción y comercialización de carne fresca destinada al consumo humano procedente de animales domésticos de las siguientes especies: bovinos (incluidas las especies Bubalus bubalis y Bison bisonte), porcinos, ovinos y caprinos y solípedos domésticos.
2. La presente Directiva no se aplicará al despiece y almacenamiento de carne fresca efectuado en establecimientos de venta al por menor o en locales adyacentes a los puntos de venta, cuando el despiece y el almacenamiento se efectúen exclusivamente con el único fin de abastecer al consumidor directamente in situ.
3. La presente Directiva se aplicará sin perjuicio de las normas comunitarias específicas aplicables a la carne picada.
4. La presente Directiva no afectará a las restricciones impuestas, de conformidad con las disposiciones generales del Tratado, a la venta al por menor de carne de solípedos.
Artículo 2
A efectos de la presente Directiva, se entenderá por
a)"carne": todas las partes de animales domésticos de la especie bovina (incluidas las especies Bubalus bubalis y Bison bisonte), de la especie bovina, porcina, ovina, caprina y solípedos aptas para el consumo humano; b)"carne": todas las partes de animales domésticos de la especie bovina (incluidas las especies Bubalus bubalis y Bison bisonte)
b)"carne fresca": la carne, incluida la carne envasada al vacío o en atmósfera controlada, que no haya sido sometida a ningún otro tratamiento distinto del tratamiento en frío para garantizar su conservación; b)"carne fresca": la carne
c)"carne separada mecánicamente": la carne obtenida por medios mecánicos a partir de huesos carnosos distintos de los huesos de la cabeza, las extremidades de los miembros inferiores a las articulaciones carpiana y tarsiana y, en el caso de los cerdos, las vértebras coxígeas, y destinada a establecimientos autorizados de conformidad con el artículo 6 de la Directiva 77/99/CEE (2);


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kakapo77
France
Local time: 23:02
French to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Good point Sep 14

Phyllis Elago wrote:



****
Hello Mirko,

You raised a very good point. If it were possible to have translators' unions, that will be of course a way to correct the trends we observe today.

I have never written that the market economy is unquestionable, I rather think it should be questioned. And, to some extent, we are seeing more and more people questioning it.

But the world of translation is almost totally made up of freelancers, which are difficult to unionize. In places like California there are trying to implement unions for freelancers, but at present there is still a lack of consensus about how to deal with that.

Have a nice day,

Marco


I don't think it is possible or even beneficial to unionise because we are not employees. We seem the same, all "translators", but actually we are each very different businesses offering different kinds and levels of value. I think it is better to leverage the flexibility of being an independent entity to adapt to the changes taking place. If we take the trouble to do this, we will be all the more valuable and connected to our customers.


****

Hello Phyllis,

Well, the trend that you can observe in countries such as the US is towards unionisation of freelancers. The idea is to overcome the present distinction between who is employee and who is not. Just look at Uber to see which kind of debate is going on.

It is true that each single translator is unique, but is this enough today in terms of marketing? Anyway, you raised a very goood point about the structure of the market of translation. It deserves much deeper reflection.

Have a nice day,

Marco


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kakapo77
France
Local time: 23:02
French to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Tell me that this translation is not impressive... Sep 14

Jorge Payan wrote:



From EU

This Directive lays down health rules for the production and placing on the market of fresh meat intended for human consumption from domestic animals of the following species: bovine animals (including the species Bubalus bubalis and Bison bison), swine, sheep and goats, and domestic solipeds.
2. This Directive shall not apply to the cutting and storage of fresh meat performed in retail shops or in premises adjacent to sale points, where the cutting and storage are performed solely for the purpose of supplying the consumer directly on the spot.
3. This Directive shall apply without prejudice to specific Community rules on minced meat.
4. This Directive shall not affect any restrictions imposed, in compliance with the general provisions of the Treaty, on the retail sale of meat from solipeds.
Article 2
For the purposes of this Directive:
(a) ‘meat’ means all parts of domestic bovine animals (including the species Bubalus bubalis and Bison bison), swine, sheep, goats and solipeds which are suitable for human consumption;
(b) ‘freshmeat’ means meat, including meat vacuum-wrapped or wrapped in a controlled atmosphere, which has not undergone any treatment other than cold treatment to ensure preservation;
(c) ‘mechanically recovered meat’ means meat obtained by mechanical means from flesh-bearing bones apart from the bones of the head, the extremities of the limbs below the carpal and tarsal joints and, in the case of swine, the coccygeal vertebrae, and intended for establishments approved in accordance with Article 6 of Directive 77/99/EEC (2);


DeepL:

La presente Directiva establece las normas sanitarias aplicables a la producción y comercialización de carne fresca destinada al consumo humano procedente de animales domésticos de las siguientes especies: bovinos (incluidas las especies Bubalus bubalis y Bison bisonte), porcinos, ovinos y caprinos y solípedos domésticos.
2. La presente Directiva no se aplicará al despiece y almacenamiento de carne fresca efectuado en establecimientos de venta al por menor o en locales adyacentes a los puntos de venta, cuando el despiece y el almacenamiento se efectúen exclusivamente con el único fin de abastecer al consumidor directamente in situ.
3. La presente Directiva se aplicará sin perjuicio de las normas comunitarias específicas aplicables a la carne picada.
4. La presente Directiva no afectará a las restricciones impuestas, de conformidad con las disposiciones generales del Tratado, a la venta al por menor de carne de solípedos.
Artículo 2
A efectos de la presente Directiva, se entenderá por
a)"carne": todas las partes de animales domésticos de la especie bovina (incluidas las especies Bubalus bubalis y Bison bisonte), de la especie bovina, porcina, ovina, caprina y solípedos aptas para el consumo humano; b)"carne": todas las partes de animales domésticos de la especie bovina (incluidas las especies Bubalus bubalis y Bison bisonte)
b)"carne fresca": la carne, incluida la carne envasada al vacío o en atmósfera controlada, que no haya sido sometida a ningún otro tratamiento distinto del tratamiento en frío para garantizar su conservación; b)"carne fresca": la carne
c)"carne separada mecánicamente": la carne obtenida por medios mecánicos a partir de huesos carnosos distintos de los huesos de la cabeza, las extremidades de los miembros inferiores a las articulaciones carpiana y tarsiana y, en el caso de los cerdos, las vértebras coxígeas, y destinada a establecimientos autorizados de conformidad con el artículo 6 de la Directiva 77/99/CEE (2);



***

Honestly,

How much post editing do you need in this case? Bye,

Marco


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:02
Member (2004)
English to Italian
yes but #2 Sep 14

Jorge Payan wrote:



From EU

This Directive lays down health rules for the production and placing on the market of fresh meat intended for human consumption from domestic animals of the following species: bovine animals (including the species Bubalus bubalis and Bison bison), swine, sheep and goats, and domestic solipeds.
2. This Directive shall not apply to the cutting and storage of fresh meat performed in retail shops or in premises adjacent to sale points, where the cutting and storage are performed solely for the purpose of supplying the consumer directly on the spot.
3. This Directive shall apply without prejudice to specific Community rules on minced meat.
4. This Directive shall not affect any restrictions imposed, in compliance with the general provisions of the Treaty, on the retail sale of meat from solipeds.
Article 2
For the purposes of this Directive:
(a) ‘meat’ means all parts of domestic bovine animals (including the species Bubalus bubalis and Bison bison), swine, sheep, goats and solipeds which are suitable for human consumption;
(b) ‘freshmeat’ means meat, including meat vacuum-wrapped or wrapped in a controlled atmosphere, which has not undergone any treatment other than cold treatment to ensure preservation;
(c) ‘mechanically recovered meat’ means meat obtained by mechanical means from flesh-bearing bones apart from the bones of the head, the extremities of the limbs below the carpal and tarsal joints and, in the case of swine, the coccygeal vertebrae, and intended for establishments approved in accordance with Article 6 of Directive 77/99/EEC (2);


DeepL:

La presente Directiva establece las normas sanitarias aplicables a la producción y comercialización de carne fresca destinada al consumo humano procedente de animales domésticos de las siguientes especies: bovinos (incluidas las especies Bubalus bubalis y Bison bisonte), porcinos, ovinos y caprinos y solípedos domésticos.
2. La presente Directiva no se aplicará al despiece y almacenamiento de carne fresca efectuado en establecimientos de venta al por menor o en locales adyacentes a los puntos de venta, cuando el despiece y el almacenamiento se efectúen exclusivamente con el único fin de abastecer al consumidor directamente in situ.
3. La presente Directiva se aplicará sin perjuicio de las normas comunitarias específicas aplicables a la carne picada.
4. La presente Directiva no afectará a las restricciones impuestas, de conformidad con las disposiciones generales del Tratado, a la venta al por menor de carne de solípedos.
Artículo 2
A efectos de la presente Directiva, se entenderá por
a)"carne": todas las partes de animales domésticos de la especie bovina (incluidas las especies Bubalus bubalis y Bison bisonte), de la especie bovina, porcina, ovina, caprina y solípedos aptas para el consumo humano; b)"carne": todas las partes de animales domésticos de la especie bovina (incluidas las especies Bubalus bubalis y Bison bisonte)
b)"carne fresca": la carne, incluida la carne envasada al vacío o en atmósfera controlada, que no haya sido sometida a ningún otro tratamiento distinto del tratamiento en frío para garantizar su conservación; b)"carne fresca": la carne
c)"carne separada mecánicamente": la carne obtenida por medios mecánicos a partir de huesos carnosos distintos de los huesos de la cabeza, las extremidades de los miembros inferiores a las articulaciones carpiana y tarsiana y, en el caso de los cerdos, las vértebras coxígeas, y destinada a establecimientos autorizados de conformidad con el artículo 6 de la Directiva 77/99/CEE (2);



These are aligned directives, translated by the UE staff... they are part of the huge bilingual corpora available on the 'net... you need to experiment with different types of text...


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Maurice Koopman  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 23:02
English to Dutch
+ ...
It will learn Sep 15

David GAY wrote:

1) In my opinion, the first translation you had posted wasn't good: it was kind of a word for word translation which is not acceptable.
2) if DeepL is as good as you say it is, agencies are going to disappear as well.
3) Don't you think there's still a premium market for which human translation is still needed?



2) They might. I dont know how the market works.
3) For sure. But that will in my opinion only be a small market. I may overstate the quality of the DeepL translations. I have actually never tried Google Translate or other engines seriously. So perhaps my reference material is limited in that sense. What I do know is, that I can understand the DeepL translation of the piece I posted (not edited in anyway). I dont need the source text. Furthermore most sentences are grammatically correct. You can look at it with a translators' eye find several faulty parts and say "I would do a better job as a translator" or you can look at it with a non-translator eye and read a text that is certainly not perfect but is fine and understandable. Good enough for PE. We are only at the beginning of this development. It's called AI. It will learn. And things don't have to be perfect to work.

[Edited at 2017-09-15 11:27 GMT]

[Edited at 2017-09-15 11:33 GMT]


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CafeTran Training
Netherlands
Local time: 23:02
Member (2016)
Nuts Sep 15

These nuts are crazy!

Screen Shot 2017-09-15 at 13.36.02

(DeepL translated the German Muttern via the English nuts as 'gek' (crazy).)


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LegalTransform  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:02
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Tested it on Italian to English Sep 16

Well, it just translated "visura di evasione" as "Evasion" and "Visura di evasione" as "Evasion invitation"

https://www.proz.com/kudoz/italian_to_english/business_commerce_general/5593046-visura_di_evasione.html

and it translated "PREVENZIONE INCENDI" (Fire Prevention) as "INCENDATIONS PREVENTION"

and the sentence:
"AUTORIZZAZIONl CONCESSE DAGLI ENTI COMPETENTI, CON PARTICOLARE RlFERIMENTO ALLA PREVENZIONE INCENDI."

as
"AUTHORISATIONS THE CONCERNING OF COMPETENT ENTIES, WITH PARTICOLARING TO THE INCENDED PREVENTION."



[Edited at 2017-09-16 01:37 GMT]


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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:02
Member (2008)
Italian to English
not unless... Sep 16

Maurice Koopman wrote:

It will learn


Not if we don't help it.

😜


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Phyllis Elago  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:02
French to English
+ ...
From a European perspective Sep 16



Hello Phyllis,

Well, the trend that you can observe in countries such as the US is towards unionisation of freelancers. The idea is to overcome the present distinction between who is employee and who is not. Just look at Uber to see which kind of debate is going on.

It is true that each single translator is unique, but is this enough today in terms of marketing? Anyway, you raised a very goood point about the structure of the market of translation. It deserves much deeper reflection.

Have a nice day,

Marco


I don't know much about what it is like to work as a translator in the US. In Europe at least, I don't have the impression that translators feel a need to unionise. I personally would not compare a translator to an Uber driver though. Also, there are many independent consultants/experts working very successfully, etc. I don't think translation is special. I do think developing your skills in the right way and marketing in the right way are very key though. For example, there are photographers making 6 figures a year and there are photographers who make much less. Same for real estate agents, etc. So long as they don't establish a business with systems, they are independent in the same way translators are. The problem is not real estate or photography, etc.


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