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How to identify tags in MemoQ?
Thread poster: Jerzy Czopik

Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:15
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
May 11, 2010

For a research I am trying to identify tags in MemoQ.
This is the view I have:



I could not find any information in online help how to identify those tags.
But what I found made me very curious: the online help says, that one is unable to even change the order of tags in segment. I have tried to leave the segment with deleted formatting tags (I know exactly what kind of formattig it is, because I created the document), but I was then not able to save the target document.

So beside the above question how to identify tags another basic question: are you able to remove formatting tags (as pairs or single tags, like formatted hyphens)) in MemoQ and still be able to create the target document? The same question for changing the tag order.

Those are most probably basic questions to experienced user of MemoQ. But please note, that this is not a jelp request but just a research question. Many thanks for your understanding.

MTIA
Best regards
Jerzy


 

Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:15
German to Spanish
+ ...
How to identify tags in MemoQ? May 11, 2010

Jerzy Czopik wrote:

For a research I am trying to identify tags in MemoQ.
This is the view I have:



I could not find any information in online help how to identify those tags.
But what I found made me very curious: the online help says, that one is unable to even change the order of tags in segment. I have tried to leave the segment with deleted formatting tags (I know exactly what kind of formattig it is, because I created the document), but I was then not able to save the target document.

So beside the above question how to identify tags another basic question: are you able to remove formatting tags (as pairs or single tags, like formatted hyphens)) in MemoQ and still be able to create the target document? The same question for changing the tag order.

Those are most probably basic questions to experienced user of MemoQ. But please note, that this is not a jelp request but just a research question. Many thanks for your understanding.

MTIA
Best regards
Jerzy


I had recently the same problem with the MemoQ trial full version and was unable to delete any tag (some residual rogue codes of a pdf to doc conversion after using the codezapper macro). As I tried to delete the tags, they moved to the segment beginn (no way to delete them really, even editing the original segment with F2), but I was able to print the document without any problem too.

[Editado a las 2010-05-11 17:51 GMT]


 

Daniel García
English to Spanish
+ ...
It has to be possible May 11, 2010

I haven't tried but it has to be posisble.

It must also be possible to change the tags and use different tags.

Some times while translating, you need to change the formatting. For instance, in the source, they might use bold or underline but in the target you want to use italics.

Daniel


 

Jaroslaw Michalak  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 23:15
Member (2004)
English to Polish
Two types of tags May 11, 2010

There are two types of tags in MQ: uninterpreted tags (represented by numbers in curly brackets) and inline tags (represented by blue tag marks).

The first ones cannot be reordered, deleted etc. - they have to be preserved exactly as they are. It is assumed that they are tags internal to the document format and messing up with them might produce incorrect target document (and usually it is true).

The second type are inline tags - they can be added, removed, reordered, and you still can export the target document (you only get a warning).

How a particular tag is converted into MQ depends mostly on the format and type of the source document. In your example the source file was probably in binary Word format (i.e. 2003), where removing or adding a tag might prevent creating a correct target document.

However, it is enough to convert the document to docx (you don't even have to have 2007 installed, one can download a conversion pack) to see that all tags are displayed as inline tags. Then you can manipulate them as needed...

Of course, there some formats where all you can get are uninterpreted tags - then the only solution is to get rid of them in the original application (usually before the translation).


[Edited at 2010-05-11 18:01 GMT]


 

Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:15
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Great! May 11, 2010

Thank you - so in this case Trados is bettericon_smile.gif
There I can do what I want with tags, provided I take care enough to mess around with things I know.


 

Jaroslaw Michalak  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 23:15
Member (2004)
English to Polish
Care is, indeed, required May 11, 2010

Jerzy Czopik wrote:

Thank you - so in this case Trados is bettericon_smile.gif
There I can do what I want with tags, provided I take care enough to mess around with things I know.


But this is much more error-prone... Old Word format is notorious for awkward format handling - for example, you could have several format changes started with the same internal command (which is converted to a single tag in CATs or rtf). Moving those around would result either in completely wrong formatting or would cause problems at document saving. If I remember correctly, TagEditor would refuse to even save such files.


 

Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:15
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
This should not be MemoQ vs Trados topic May 11, 2010

It would need a lot of testing, what is possible where.
So I admit that while I have enough experience to fiddle with tags in Trados, the same is not possible for me in MemoQ or Transit.

So the conclusion of the question is, that you can move or delete certain tags in certain formats in MemoQ. This is enough for that - but how to tell what is which tag?
Would you possibly have a screen shot on that?

Thanks
Best regards
Jerzy


 

Jaroslaw Michalak  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 23:15
Member (2004)
English to Polish
Both work... May 11, 2010

I'm not saying that one approach is better than the other one - you just trade flexibility for security or vice versa.

Import of binary Word 2003 (doc) file, with hardcoded (uninterpreted) tags:



Import of xml Word 2007 (docx) file, with inline tags (here shown with medium length - the display format can be adjusted):



[Edited at 2010-05-11 20:56 GMT]


 

Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:15
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
What does "rpr" mean? May 11, 2010

If I look on tags in Tageditor, I see this:


Ad the tag text reads for example: <cf spacing="-0.2">
Which simply means the font has been condensed by 0.2 point and I can safely remove this tag and the corresponding closing tag. This view is clear readable and easy tom understand. This is why now I am asking how other tools do show tags.

[Edited at 2010-05-12 07:46 GMT]


 

Fernando Toledo  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:15
German to Spanish
Yes May 11, 2010

Tageditor show the tags informations, it is nice to see it... one time, then normally you close then and translate, that is what a translator does, but back to the theme, how is with Studio 2009? You are comparing a actual application, MemoQ, with a old version of Trados.

Regards


 

Jaroslaw Michalak  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 23:15
Member (2004)
English to Polish
Another one May 11, 2010

In my example file the word "just" is highlighted (yellow backgroud).

I did not use any common formatting (such as bold), as these are interpreted by MemoQ (so you see text which was bold in Word as bold in MemoQ) and you handle them differently - no tags, but formatting tools (you can see formatting buttons on the toolbar).

Personally, I am not a fan of this solution - I would prefer to handle everything with tags. I suppose it is useful sometimes - for example, English titles which are italicised should be quoted in Polish, so handling that directly might help.


 

Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:15
Member (2003)
Polish to German
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TOPIC STARTER
Studio gives you the choice May 12, 2010

Formatting with nearly no tags, formatting with tags or just tags.
And Studio removes unnecessary formatting, as you can see on the screenshot below.
Unfortunately not in all formats, but I hope this to come some day...
The screenshot shows the option formatting and tags for InDesign.
This is always exactly the same file with same formatting and some formatting nonsense like reduced font width or unnecessary hyphens.



 

Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:15
French to Polish
+ ...
What does "rpr" mean? May 12, 2010

Jabberwock wrote:

In my example file the word "just" is highlighted (yellow backgroud).

I did not use any common formatting (such as bold), as these are interpreted by MemoQ (so you see text which was bold in Word as bold in MemoQ) and you handle them differently - no tags, but formatting tools (you can see formatting buttons on the toolbar).

"rpr"means "run properties", it's the format coding tag in Word XML.
MQ creates a table of rpr tags, then uses the numbered occurencies in order to format the text in the sentence if the formatting is not handled directly (e.g. bold, italics).
For the meaning of the tag, just see the preview icon_smile.gif
I think it's cool for most Office documents and for most users.
For tagged documents, the tag content is displayed, e.g. as in Trados. so you can deal with 'em directly (if you want, you may use uninterpreted tags too if you think it makes sense).

Personally, I am not a fan of this solution - I would prefer to handle everything with tags. I suppose it is useful sometimes - for example, English titles which are italicised should be quoted in Polish, so handling that directly might help.

No problem here, just type a quote icon_smile.gif
But, seriously, when you really need to apply a different formatting in a "dummy" way, you may just copy tags from the same of from a different segment.
It works.
Of course, the direct tag handling would be better for gurus but I suppose the day is gonna come icon_smile.gif

Cheers
GG

[Edited at 2010-05-12 09:53 GMT]


 

Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:15
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Preview will NOT show you all those formatting nonsense May 12, 2010

like font manipulations so common in converted PDF files, but not only there.
When I have an InDesign document, such nonsense is being removed by the Studio filter, but only by this one. In Word for example the tag for condensed font or similar nasty things will remain - but at least I can see at one glance what the tags mean.

So the question remains: does MemoQ show me the content of the tags in a way, that I do not need any code tables to read 'em?


 

Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:15
French to Polish
+ ...
Uninterpreted tags (MQ RTF workflow) May 12, 2010

Jerzy Czopik wrote:

I could not find any information in online help how to identify those tags.

Preview.
It's a tool designed to be easy for a dummy.

But what I found made me very curious: the online help says, that one is unable to even change the order of tags in segment. I have tried to leave the segment with deleted formatting tags (I know exactly what kind of formattig it is, because I created the document), but I was then not able to save the target document.

You think as a Trados user icon_smile.gif
Think different icon_smile.gif

It's a perfectly intuitive aproach for DVX users icon_smile.gif
The codes (uninpreted tags) simply must be there.
The MQ advantage is you have a simple editor which permits to apply basic formatting (bold, italics etc.) in a transparent way, which is a big advantage against DVX.

The RTF workflow in MQ should be rather compared to the "classic" Trados Word workflow, i.e. you don't see the subjacent formatting and you work in a environment comparable to WYSIWIG but with no usual Trados font corruption.
Of course, in some cases the DVX/MQ formatting is too rigid but in MQ you can always use the XML workfow (docx files).

So beside the above question how to identify tags another basic question: are you able to remove formatting tags (as pairs or single tags, like formatted hyphens)) in MemoQ and still be able to create the target document? The same question for changing the tag order.

It's imposible for uniterpreted tags.
But you can put no text between 'em.
It works as tag deletion.

In the XML workflow, you can add/remove inline tags as you like.

Cheers
GG

[Edited at 2010-05-12 10:37 GMT]


 
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