Does Memsource Cloud support synonyms (or alternative terms) in its termbases?
Thread poster: Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer

Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
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Aug 18, 2015

I am currently investigating online CAT tools, and am wondering if any of them support synonyms in termbases?

In my CAT tool, CafeTran, e.g., you can add synonyms to an entry simply by separating terms with semi colons, thus:

cat = kat;poes;poesje

Can Memsource Cloud (or Memsource Editor) do this, or do you need to create a separate entry for each synonym (like in DejaVu, and other CAT tools with poor synonym handling)?

Also, do you know of any other online CAT tools that can handle synonyms?

Michael


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
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another question re Memsource Aug 18, 2015

When you are translating, if you click Ctrl + UP/Down, you can scroll through the hits in the "CAT pane" (= the windows with TM/TB hits). Just like in memoQ. However, is there a shortcut to auto-insert the term or phrase you have currently selected into your target text?

This question applies to both Memsource Cloud and Memsource Editor.

Michael

[Edited at 2015-08-18 14:26 GMT]

Edit: I figured it out already: Ctrl+Space. I must say that this is a very ergonomic system. Hats off to the developers.

[Edited at 2015-08-18 14:29 GMT]


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Stepan Konev  Identity Verified
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re another question Aug 18, 2015

Ctrl+Space works for an item already selected. So you have to choose an item before inserting it.
Alternatively you can use CTRL+1,2,3,4,5... any number. This inserts the desired result without the need to choose it.
(P.S. memoQ works in the same way)

[Edited at 2015-08-18 14:58 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-08-19 04:22 GMT]


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
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very similar to memoQ Aug 18, 2015

Stepan Konev wrote:

Ctrl+Space works for an item already selected. So you have to choose an item before inserting it.
Alternatively you can use CTRL+1,2,3,4,5... any number. This inserts the desired result without the need to choose it.
(P.S. memoQ works in the way)

[Edited at 2015-08-18 14:58 GMT]


Ha ha, I don't want to offend anyone, but the Memsource UI is pretty darned similar to that of memoQ. Not that I think that is a bad thing, quite the contrary. I think it works really well.


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
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What is "poor synonym handling"... Aug 18, 2015

Michael Beijer wrote:
cat = kat;poes;poesje
... or do you need to create a separate entry for each synonym (like in DejaVu, and other CAT tools with poor synonym handling)?


I would consider CafeTran's method "poor synonym handling".


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
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@Samuel: Aug 18, 2015

Samuel Murray wrote:

Michael Beijer wrote:
cat = kat;poes;poesje
... or do you need to create a separate entry for each synonym (like in DejaVu, and other CAT tools with poor synonym handling)?


I would consider CafeTran's method "poor synonym handling".


Why I consider DVX's handling of synonyms suboptimal:

In DVX, in order to add synonyms, you need to split the entry into multiple entries.

kat;poes;poesje = cat

becomes:

kat = cat
poes = cat
poesje = cat


CafeTran, memoQ, and a few other CAT tools allow you to group terms (concepts) together (like in a full-blown term management program like tlTerm), including all their synonyms, which I define as "good synonym handling".

There are many reasons why this is superior. One of them is that if you wish to add any other data to an entry (in the form of Note, Usage example, Source, URL, Subject, Client, Sense, etc. fields), in the DVX system, you would need to copy all of this to three different entries. In CT, it all stays together, grouped in a single entry.

Now it's my turn. Why do you consider CafeTran's handling of synonyms to be poor? Compared to what CAT tool?

-------------------------- •••

••• Incidentally, after a bit of playing around, I discovered that you can add synonyms to Memcource TB entries (which is great!), from the Term Base tab, in the Project dashboard area (not sure what it's officially called), by hovering next to a src or trgt entry and clicking the little green plus sign that appears. It doesn't seem to be possible to add synonyms when adding a term pair in the grid (via Alt+T), or when clicking on "Edit Source Term / Edit Target Term" under the "CAT pane" (when selecting an entry). Unless I am missing something. •••

[Edited at 2015-08-18 18:25 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-08-19 12:33 GMT]


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Stepan Konev  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
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So what... Aug 18, 2015

Actually I cannot see any problem with adding synonyms. Before your post I could not even think that adding synonyms may be so troublesome... Maybe because I still could not find a use for 'Note, Usage example, Source, URL, Subject, Client, Sense, etc. fields'?..
In memoQ you can add as many entries to a term as you like. The same applies to Memsource.
How many terms you may have in a segment? Two or three?
How many synonyms they may have? Two or three?
So you will have 9 entries as a maximum. Just use Ctrl+1 to 9... Is it a problem?

[Edited at 2015-08-19 04:23 GMT]


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
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@Stepan: Aug 19, 2015

I don't understand everything you just said, but I'll give it a go.

I'm not sure which CAT tool you are talking about when you are talking about "adding synonyms".

We also seem to be talking about two different things:
(1) Adding synonyms to the termbase, and
(2) Inserting synonyms into the target text (Ctrl+1 to 9..)

Actually, three things, because "adding synonyms" can mean two things:

(1) How you actually add them to your termbase, and
(2) the structure of the synonyms in the termbase (i.e., how they are added)

I don't really have time to go into this in detail but I think it is clear that there are two basic approaches to how synonyms are stored/structured in termbases:

The "DVX way": each synonym goes in a separate entry
The memoQ/CafeTran way: each synonym goes in single entry (i.e. the main concept)

That was what I was talking about with Samuel, when comparing the CafeTran and DVX approach.

I was also talking about the various ways there were of adding synonyms to the termbase, in Memsource (the part preceded by "••• Incidentally, after a bit of playing around, " in my previous post) … there are basically three places they could be added, but you can only add them in one of them, which is a shame.

As you can see, I spend a lot of time thinking about synonyms, and how they can be entered and used in CAT tools. In fact, it is one of the main things I look at when experimenting with a new CAT tool.

[Edited at 2015-08-19 12:34 GMT]


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
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fun with synonyms Aug 19, 2015

I just came across another reason why I think it is important to be able to quickly add a large number of synonyms to a termbase entry. When translating, I often look up words in the thesaurus of the Oxford online dictionary. I then often add strings of synonyms I find there to my CAT tool's termbase (attaching them to whatever term I looked up), so I don't have to go to the Oxforddictionaries.com website the next time I'm in need of a little inspiration.

It should be as quick and easy as possible to add these synonyms to any particular TB entry, and (if possible) I shouldn’t have to leave the grid (translation editor) to do so.

• DVX is terrible in this respect, as I would have to create a separate TB entry for each synonym I want to add (18x).
• Memsource is pretty good in this respect: I can open up the TB management tab, and click the little green plus sign (18x) as many times as necessary, to add the synonyms to the main entry.
• CafeTran is the best: I can just copy/paste the string of synonyms from the Oxford website into my termbase entry, adding them all at once. I might need to change the format, but this can be done with a tiny AutoHotkey script:

Oxford website format:
"recipe:
means/way of achieving, means/way of ensuring;
prescription, formula, method, technique, system, procedure, plan;
likely cause of, source of;
MO, process, means, way;
blueprint;
Latinmodus operandi
"

becomes:

CafeTran termbase format (18 synonyms):
"recipe;means/way of achieving;means/way of ensuring;prescription;formula;method;technique;system;procedure;plan;likely cause of;source of;MO;modus operandi;process;means;way;blueprint"

some_text

[Edited at 2015-08-19 12:56 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-08-19 12:57 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-08-19 12:58 GMT]


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Vaclav Balacek  Identity Verified
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Dealing with synonyms in Memsource Aug 19, 2015

Hi, in Memsource you can enter synonyms to terms, such as http://take.ms/MiU4Y.
You can enter synonyms when creating new terms or when importing terminology from Excel. Details are described in our documentation: http://wiki.memsource.com/wiki/Memsource_Cloud_User_Manual#Terminology_Import.


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
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Thanks for the info! Aug 19, 2015

Vaclav Balacek wrote:

Hi, in Memsource you can enter synonyms to terms, such as http://take.ms/MiU4Y.
You can enter synonyms when creating new terms or when importing terminology from Excel. Details are described in our documentation: http://wiki.memsource.com/wiki/Memsource_Cloud_User_Manual#Terminology_Import.


Hi Vaclav,

You said "You can enter synonyms when creating new terms", but how exactly? Do you mean directly in the Alt+T dialogue when translating in the grid?

It seems to me that the only place you can add them is (when importing, or ) from the Term Bases tab (i.e., @ https://cloud1.memsource.com/web/termBase/show/54409 ).

It would be great if the user could also add them when adding the term (via Alt+T) when translating in the grid. There are quite a few steps between adding a term via Alt+T, and navigating to the place where synonyms can be added to the term.

It would be great, e.g., if the user could just enter terms separated by a character (e.g., a semi colon ir pipe) in the Alt+T interface, and these would then be automatically added to the TB as synonyms.

Michael


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Vaclav Balacek  Identity Verified
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How to add synonyms Aug 26, 2015

Dear Michael,
You are right, you can add synonyms from the term base (on the web) or when importing terminology.
We will discuss your suggestion but it seems a little complicated, because for each term you may need to have different attributes (like case sensitive, etc.) or you may want to enter different comments, etc.


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
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@Vaclav: Aug 30, 2015

Thanks!

By the way, I have one more question: is it possible to translate memoQ files (.mqxliff) in the Memsource?

Michael


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Meta Arkadia
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Objection, Your Honour Aug 31, 2015

Samuel Murray wrote:
I would consider CafeTran's method "poor synonym handling".


It's not "CafeTran's method," it's Michael's "method." I for one (hi Tom - no, not you, the one in London), I use my general TMX termbase to add synonyms/alternative translations the DV way, and client/subject specific terms to client/subject specific TMX termbases or the project file for term consistency. And I assign the highest priority to the latter.

Cheers,

Hans


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
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foolishness Aug 31, 2015

Meta Arkadia wrote:

Samuel Murray wrote:
I would consider CafeTran's method "poor synonym handling".


It's not "CafeTran's method," it's Michael's "method." I for one (hi Tom - no, not you, the one in London), I use my general TMX termbase to add synonyms/alternative translations the DV way, and client/subject specific terms to client/subject specific TMX termbases or the project file for term consistency. And I assign the highest priority to the latter.

Cheers,

Hans


Hans,

All that priority nonsense can be achieved right inside a single txt glossary (just use Client and Subject fields). No need to use the crippled TMXs for terminology, and juggle 3000 different little TMXs like you.

And it's not my method. There are two methods of handling synonyms/alternatives in CafeTran (because there are two terminology formats). You use one, I use the other. It's quite simple.

If you want to argue about CafeTran stuff, come do it in our official forum (https://cafetran.freshdesk.com/support/discussions ). Not here. I'm trying to ask a question about Memsource.

Michael


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