| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Translator lied about word count and how should I pay her? Thread poster: Anna Muntean Stacanova
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Nicole Schnell wrote: It turned out that I had been talking about Euro cents on the phone whereas they were talking about USD cents. Ouch... 
Thanks for reminding us; I could have gone into that trap.
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Inka Stacanova wrote:
"You originally took that job without re-checking and confirming the word count with the agency"
No I did not I never said that
OK, so you had the word count from two sources - the agency and yourself. Fine by me. Thanks for the explanation.
"did so without demanding a confirmation of word count and price? Again, strange and..."
No not really. We agreed on the price in email and I send a form filled for invoice, she still sent me a price higher than agreed upon for some reason. Maybe mistake
When did she do it? Just after job completion? That was the moment to say "Sorry, last Friday you confirmed the agreed price. Please correct the invoice ASAP." I don't know if she didn't invoice immediately or you didn't react immediately - the party not acting immediately is to me guilty of neglect and has to bear the consequences.
"But then you received the job done ahead of deadline and did not care to glance at it? Again, ...." I did not Not Care. I could not, that is why I did not do the job in the first place. (in fact I felt it would help to bang my head on the wall, this is how sick I was. It did not help though
It would take a coma or my own funeral to prevent me reading at least half a page of a translation not done by myself prior to sending it off. If I am able to send it off at all, I am also able to do that much.
"Next thing, if it was such a poor quality as you claim, why didn't the agency raise hell immediately?"
I do not know, I am not the agency.
"And you never mention the grounds on which the agency refused payment to you."
QUALITY
Those two don't stick together. Unless you work for a lousy agency. Any normal agency would either raise hell and refuse payment (unless you deliver a correction in no time at all) or sit quiet and pay. No third option.
"All in all, at first you accepted the job performance without reservations, neglected obtaining a firm agreement as to the word count and price beforehand, and after 30-45 days fancy a payment refusal."
I have no idea where you took the ground to say that one especially.
I never never never fancy or consider appropriate to refuse the payment. It is what I promised.
If I invoice $100 and get $50, is that a payment of an invoice? To me, it isn't. An invoice can either be paid in full or sent back for correction. The latter constitutes a payment refusal to me, at least temporary. We don't talk about a total rejection of an invoice here, do we? This would constitute a permanent payment refusal.
[Edited at 2008-12-21 11:14 GMT]
| | | | | HOWEVER HOW WOULD YOU PAY TO JOB LIKE THIS? | Dec 21, 2008 |
[quote]Inka Stacanova wrote:
You made a mistake during unfortunate circumstances, pay for your mistakes with dignity and don't use the translator again.
One other point, unless the Agency knows that you sub-contract work, I believe it is unethical to use another translator without their knowledge
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A MORE CAREFUL NEW YEAR
| | | | | Two different points | Dec 21, 2008 |
Inka, there are two different points to talk about:
1. The word count. You can not and should not pay for the words, which were not translated. If she translated 2000 words, so pay for that, but not for 3000 words. There are certainly different laws, but in Germany you can deduct something from the invoice, explaining the reasons, without rewriting it.
In fact I can not understand the colleagues, who say, that she has to be paid for the other amount that she translated.
... See more Inka, there are two different points to talk about:
1. The word count. You can not and should not pay for the words, which were not translated. If she translated 2000 words, so pay for that, but not for 3000 words. There are certainly different laws, but in Germany you can deduct something from the invoice, explaining the reasons, without rewriting it.
In fact I can not understand the colleagues, who say, that she has to be paid for the other amount that she translated.
2. Quality.
This is a completely different question. If you are not able to prove the quality you can not outsource jobs. You had time enough to do it. If you could not do it yourself, you could have asked someone. But in any case, if the quality is poor, the translator had a right to enhance it.
3. Payment terms with the agency.
A lot of good agencies pay 45 or even 60 days later. If someone wants to refuse a job because of that, it is her or his right. The most important thing, that they pay. ▲ Collapse
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| On here as well | Dec 21, 2008 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
It turned out that I had been talking about Euro cents on the phone whereas they were talking about USD cents. Ouch...
Confuses me on here as well. It is as if certain people think that their currency is the only one on earth with cents. Or indeed that is named "dollar" - I'm never sure, for instance, whether our Canadian chums mean their own dollar or are talking in USD because they think more people can relate to that.... ho hum
| | | | | Turning down after commitment because of force majeure | Dec 21, 2008 |
It looks you was really sick and you could not do the job at all after commitment. This is a case of force majeure and you was entitled to turn it down after commitment. You should have told it to the agency and they would have decided what to do. Only if you knew a fully trustable and as good as you translator, you could have told the agency about the possibility of outsourcing the translation. I do emphasize: only if you do trust him/her and only if you do know he/... See more It looks you was really sick and you could not do the job at all after commitment. This is a case of force majeure and you was entitled to turn it down after commitment. You should have told it to the agency and they would have decided what to do. Only if you knew a fully trustable and as good as you translator, you could have told the agency about the possibility of outsourcing the translation. I do emphasize: only if you do trust him/her and only if you do know he/she is at least as good as you; and, once again, the agency should have decided.
Then, ASAP, you should have faxed or emailed them a scanned copy of a medical certificate stating that you can not work. If in your country self employed people can get a sick leave document, the same as employees can, you should have sent it too to the agency to prove you did not lie them.
¡Salud!
Ignacio Vicario Esteban ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell 
United States
Local time: 19:10
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | The number of words | Dec 21, 2008 |
erika rubinstein wrote:
In fact I can not understand the colleagues, who say, that she has to be paid for the other amount that she translated.
I don't understand what "the other amount" is supposed to be. It sounds like significant parts of text were missing.
On a different note, I am very hesitant to blindly criticize the quality of a job before I haven't seen it myself. Especially since it was accepted without complaint. I cannot finish my plate in a restaurant and THEN tell the waiter that I refuse to pay because it tasted like cr.p and BTW, there was a snail in my salad.
| | | | | A snail in your salad | Dec 21, 2008 |
It quite describes the situation!
Regards,
Liliana
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 04:10
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| In cases like these... | Dec 23, 2008 |
Inka Stacanova wrote:
I took the job I could not complete because of sickness and so immediatelly found a translator to finish it and said to her that payment will come 30-45 days as agency promised to me or in case agancy does not pay I will pay my money.
In cases like these, when I have to outsource work to fellow-translators, the understanding is always that I will pay when I get paid. This is fair, I think. What you said to the translator, namely that you'd pay her even if you don't get paid, was irresponsible. Why did you say such a thing?
I was still sick and did not check her word count and did not check the quality.
I sympathise with your situation. I recently outsourced work to a translator who became very ill and was unable to even answer e-mails. I felt rather bad about dropping the translator but a deadline is a deadline. Illness is a sad fact of life.
I think your problem is that you had agreed to pay even if the agency does not pay. That is risky. I think what Nicole says is harsh, but... it is the truth.
| | | | | And cue forum meltdown.... | Dec 23, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
In cases like these, when I have to outsource work to fellow-translators, the understanding is always that I will pay when I get paid. This is fair, I think. What you said to the translator, namely that you'd pay her even if you don't get paid, was irresponsible. Why did you say such a thing?
Oh Lord.....
I think your problem is that you had agreed to pay even if the agency does not pay. That is risky. I think what Nicole says is harsh, but... it is the truth.
OK. Well, you have often said on here "IANAL", and I suppose we have to consider the possibility that South African law is different.
However, it is usually taken to be a general principle that translation contracts between A and B are independent of such contracts between B and C.
Ceteris paribus, as our economist friends might say, therefore, the fact that A does not pay B does not usually entitle B not to pay C. Although the same dcument might be involved, they are 2 separate contracts. This is why it is important for B to check the quality of what is delivered from C before passing it on to A - any issues should ideally be raised then. If B accepts the "goods" from C.... payment is due. If A does not accept those self-same goods from B, that is an issue between A and B. B has already accepted that C has performed the contract, and C should therefore be paid. End of (somewhat simplistic) story!
I stress, this is the generally held view and reflects the usual (standard) situation, I think.
| | | | | Oh Lord indeed .... | Dec 23, 2008 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
In cases like these, when I have to outsource work to fellow-translators, the understanding is always that I will pay when I get paid. This is fair, I think. What you said to the translator, namely that you'd pay her even if you don't get paid, was irresponsible. Why did you say such a thing?
Oh Lord.....
I think your problem is that you had agreed to pay even if the agency does not pay. That is risky. I think what Nicole says is harsh, but... it is the truth.
OK. Well, you have often said on here "IANAL", and I suppose we have to consider the possibility that South African law is different. However, it is usually taken to be a general principle that translation contracts between A and B are independent of such contracts between B and C. Ceteris paribus, as our economist friends might say, therefore, the fact that A does not pay B does not usually entitle B not to pay C. Although the same dcument might be involved, they are 2 separate contracts. This is why it is important for B to check the quality of what is delivered from C before passing it on to A - any issues should ideally be raised then. If B accepts the "goods" from C.... payment is due. If A does not accept those self-same goods from B, that is an issue between A and B. B has already accepted that C has performed the contract, and C should therefore be paid. End of (somewhat simplistic) story! I stress, this is the generally held view and reflects the usual (standard) situation, I think.
... what next?
And, just to dispel any notions to the contrary, SA contract law doesn't actually differ that much from English contract law, at least not on these basic points ... and FWIW, IAAL (who happened to qualify and practise in SA)
[Edited at 2008-12-23 12:35 GMT]
| | | | Laura Tridico
United States
Local time: 22:10
French to English
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| You only pay when you get paid?? | Dec 23, 2008 |
That's simply unacceptable. As others noted, an outsourcer's contract with a freelancer is entirely separate from that outsourcer's agreement with the end client. Just as the freelancer accepts the risk of non-payment when working with an agency, the agency accepts the same risk when accepting work from the end client. That's the nature of business, and it doesn't give you the right to arbitrarily pass your business risk down the line.
I suppose if you can sucker some newbie freelan... See more That's simply unacceptable. As others noted, an outsourcer's contract with a freelancer is entirely separate from that outsourcer's agreement with the end client. Just as the freelancer accepts the risk of non-payment when working with an agency, the agency accepts the same risk when accepting work from the end client. That's the nature of business, and it doesn't give you the right to arbitrarily pass your business risk down the line.
I suppose if you can sucker some newbie freelancer into accepting such contractual terms, that's one thing - but it isn't very professional. Do you really mean to say that if you hire a freelancer to do $3,000 of work on a project and your end client skips the bill, that poor freelancer is left out in the cold? Nice.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but this kind of practice is what gives outsourcers a bad reputation. No reputable agency would operate in such a manner, and no professional freelancer should ever accept such conditions.
Laura ▲ Collapse
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| Assuming or not the non payment risk | Dec 23, 2008 |
Laura Tridico wrote:
That's simply unacceptable. As others noted, an outsourcer's contract with a freelancer is entirely separate from that outsourcer's agreement with the end client. Just as the freelancer accepts the risk of non-payment when working with an agency, the agency accepts the same risk when accepting work from the end client. That's the nature of business, and it doesn't give you the right to arbitrarily pass your business risk down the line.
I do agree with you and others as far as the outsourcer get some money with that. If the outsourcer pays the translator less money than received from the client, it is unacceptable not paying him/her if the client does not pay. But let's say that he pays the translator the same ammount he get from the client, an the only "profit" is to keep a good client happy; in that case it is fine to pass the translator the risk of non payment, because he would pass the translator the full profit too.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 04:10
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| My comments apply to emergency outsourcing to colleagues only | Dec 23, 2008 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
I think your problem is that you had agreed to pay even if the agency does not pay. That is risky. I think what Nicole says is harsh, but... it is the truth. However, it is usually taken to be a general principle that translation contracts between A and B are independent of such contracts between B and C.
I understand what you're saying, but the situation described by the OP was not the usual relationship between a service provider and a client. The OP is not the end-translator's client. She is the end-translator's colleague who asked her to help her out in an emergency situation.
As such, she does not the cash flow that one would normally expect an outsourcing party would have, nor does she have the quality checking capacity that one would normally expect an agency would have.
If an agency tells me that they'll only pay me when they get paid, I certainly won't accept that arrangement. But if a colleague asks me to help out, and if I accept, then I can't expect him to have access to the same business facilities (including cash flow) that his client would have. All I can reasonably expect is that he would pay me as soon as he is paid, and that we would both act in a way that would normally ensure speedy payment.
[Edited at 2008-12-23 16:47 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 04:10
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Comments to Laura | Dec 23, 2008 |
Laura Tridico wrote:
As others noted, an outsourcer's contract with a freelancer is entirely separate from that outsourcer's agreement with the end client.
Not necessarily. The fullfillment of a contract between A and B as a precondition for fulfulling a contract between B and C is nothing new in business.
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