| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15] > | We MUST quote in low-price jobs with OUR prices! Thread poster: Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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| Off topic - Thanks so much for saying it! | Feb 9, 2009 |
Aniello Scognamiglio wrote:
An agency or direct client that uses people will always find people who like to be used like a kitchen device.
I brought up this lingusitic issue a few years back after having observed a pattern in job posts. I felt like taking on work - but I didn't feel like being used. Also, I don't use my hairdresser, I don't use my dentist and I don't use my accountant - and I would only find it fair if they wanted to stop doing business with me after my attempting to use them. It seems I am rather excentric, because most of my colleagues seemed to be saying I am overly sensitive. I am glad at least another intelligent person feels the same way about this.
| | | | | Quote 'em high! | Feb 9, 2009 |
Taija Salo wrote: ... and inspired ... I quoted two cents higher than usually  (Got the job with no objection.)
Quote five cents higher next time if you're really good. If you stay away from the three-centers and quote good service to serious agencies, over a not-too-long period of time you may find that it isn't so hard to get what you thought were impossible rates. I had a chat with my partner on that subject tonight over dinner. She's a much better translator than I am with 2.5 times the experience (more if you count sheer volume). Yet her rates were mostly much lower than mine when we teamed up 5 years ago, even for the same customers in some cases. My bad influence has given her a bit of an attitude, so now she sometimes quotes rates that are higher than I would ask for. And gets them.
Moreover, once you get out of that under-ten-cent ghetto, you'll find that it's easier to move from 11 cents to 14 cents than it was to go from 8 to 10, and it's even easier to go from 14 to 16 or perhaps even 20+ on occasion. Euro cents and from agencies, not direct customers. They pay a good bit more usually. Upmarket customers are usually a lot more appreciative of a good job too, and it's nice - really nice - to have the luxury of finding ways to give them a little extra in one way or another. It's hard to do that when you're digging through trash cans in the translation ghetto looking for your next meal.
[Edited at 2009-02-09 22:01 GMT]
| | | | | A distinction between rates offered and rates paid | Feb 9, 2009 |
If we isolate the topic of this thread to the ProZ segment of the agency market, then yes, rates are going down. But even at that, what is decreasing is the offered rate, not the paid rate. I just thought I'd bring this into perpective, seeing as several people here seem to confuse the two.
I get lots of requests, and there, too, the rates go down. Meanwhile, my rate is still the same and those who are smart or fortunate enough to work with me pay that rate and ... See more If we isolate the topic of this thread to the ProZ segment of the agency market, then yes, rates are going down. But even at that, what is decreasing is the offered rate, not the paid rate. I just thought I'd bring this into perpective, seeing as several people here seem to confuse the two.
I get lots of requests, and there, too, the rates go down. Meanwhile, my rate is still the same and those who are smart or fortunate enough to work with me pay that rate and are happy with it. In fact, I am about to increase my rates again, but more importantly, I am about to go on a prospecting round.
Besides, as mentioned by several colleagues here, often, the rate offered by the trnslator is rejected, only to be accepted later on, after the client finds out the hard way that you get what you pay for. So, the translator does end up getting the ten cents - but the job post still says four cents. And we use these job posts to get an idea on the state of rates today. I'd rather go back to my magic 8 ball...
Once again, as illustrated by my personal experience (which may not be representative of everybody else's), it is not the rates that are going down - it is the offered rates. Now is the time for all of us to stick to our guns, because I somehow feel that this seeming rate decrease is all about trying us on. Time to show that we are not so desperate to fit. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Interesting point | Feb 9, 2009 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Once again, as illustrated by my personal experience (which may not be representative of everybody else's), it is not the rates that are going down - it is the offered rates.
Until you mentioned this, Viktoria, I hadn't actually thought about the offered rates much. It's fairly rate that anyone offers me work at a fixed rate, and I usually send those people off with a polite "no thanks". (I'm usually too busy, so unless it's a really interesting text I won't bother with a counter-offer.) Most inquiries or posts I deal with don't offer a rate. I'm asked about availability and interest or I express interest in what seems to be a good project and I state my rate for doing it as well as how I plan to go about it. Probably in a lot less detail than you do judging from a recent message I saw.
But you're right here in any case. The posted rate is most likely the least for which the job was given, but it might well have been placed for a lot more. So if we want to use those project notices as an indicator of real rates being paid, we might as well use something more reliable like a ouija board.
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| There is no way to find out | Feb 9, 2009 |
Kevin Lossner wrote:
So if we want to use those project notices as an indicator of real rates being paid, we might as well use something more reliable like a ouija board.
Unless ProZ starts publicly posting the rates at which jobs on the job board were actually awarded (which would be hilarious on the one hand, and quite useful for freelancers on the other), there is no way we can tell whether rates are up, down or steady. One thing we can tell is that we are being tried on - that is clear looking at recent job posts.
A little bit off topic... Your quoting scheme, Kevin, is probably much closer to mine than you seem to think. The post you are referring to offered two choices: either providing an extremely wide rate range which will not help the outsourcer to figure out whether I fit the bill, or giving the outsourcer a ridiculously detailed rate scheme which will definitely make their eyes cross and which will give me carpal tunnel syndrome. FYI, my quoting scheme basically relies on a sample of the translatables, and it simply mentions X amount for translating, plus 25% because it is a PowerPoint file, plus 25% rush fee. Would you like to get it reviewed by a second pair of eyes? That's 50% extra. The percentages are not representative of what I really write - it's all decided on a case-by-case basis. Just thought you should know.
| | | | Speranza 
Local time: 12:58
Spanish to Russian
+ ...
| An inconvenient truth (not the movie) | Feb 10, 2009 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
after the client finds out the hard way that you get what you pay for.
That is precisely the problem: Many of them never find that out, and if they do, denial is a popular policy (as any path of least resistance often is). All it takes is a clueless translator, an incompetent proofreader and a PM unfamiliar with the target language, and that combination is extremely easy to find.
A couple years ago, a U.K. agency asked me to proofread a translation into Russian. They seldom get in touch as I charge more that they are willing to pay, but on that occasion their regular proofreader was unavailable and they didn't have much time to find somebody new. So I looked at the text, told the agency when I would be able to deliver considering the amount of correction required, and they got mad at... me! What on earth was going to take me so long? Their regular proofreader had never had problems with that translator, did I really have to spoil the game for everyone?
That's just one example; I could provide more, but that's really boring, and I'm sure you know what I'm talking about anyway. If an agency has one guy who supplies cheap translation quick and another guy who says the quality is OK, too (both guys can surely be gals, that's not the point), the odds are high they don't want their boat to be rocked.
| | | | | How are they going to do that now? | Feb 10, 2009 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Unless ProZ starts publicly posting the rates at which jobs on the job board were actually awarded (which would be hilarious on the one hand, and quite useful for freelancers on the other), there is no way we can tell whether rates are up, down or steady. One thing we can tell is that we are being tried on - that is clear looking at recent job posts.
Once the communication starts between the outsourcers and the freelancers, in many cases I don't think the "system" is notified of whose bid is successful nor at what rate. This is as it should be. Once in a while I get an automated notification that a quotation has been accepted, and this usually surprises me, because most of the time my quotes are accepted ProZ is no longer involved. If either I or the outsourcer were required to go back and put in the rate taken, it would be an unnecessary imposition and a waste of my time. And nobody else's business, really. If I give rate information, I do so on a voluntary basis. Try to compel me to do that or anything else, and you'd better watch out. (I've always been rather fond of the Gadsden flag.)
If you want a good "snapshot" of current rates, maybe you can start pestering ProZ or another organization to design an online survey (tracking IPs or something to prevent multiple voting or using user IDs). Rather than asking for averages of high, low and median rates as in the BDÜ survey, I would simply ask for the last five rates actually billed on an invoice. I might autoprompt users to participate for a particular language pair once every six months or so. Correlating with other user data you could then generate all sorts of wonderful rate maps. We could see that the virtuous red circle pros in Chile keep costs down for suffering customers by translating Russian into Japanese at half the rate the Angolans would do it, that English translators on the sunny beaches of Spain have had too much sun and undercut their colleagues in not-so-sunny Scotland by half and so on. BrowniZ points for participating, of course, so it really pays off. (Remind me again: what I can do with those? Oh yes, text ads....)
| | | | | It wasn't a suggestion | Feb 10, 2009 |
I didn't suggest that ProZ disclose the rates for which contracts in job posts were awarded - as you say, it would be totally impractical and many of us would object to it, rightly so. I was merely suggesting the only way I see we could figure out what the "going" rates are. Naturally, that will never happen. The conclusion is that there simply isn't any means to figure it out.
The only thing I see for the moment that seems pretty clear is that the ten cent mark seems to be some kin... See more I didn't suggest that ProZ disclose the rates for which contracts in job posts were awarded - as you say, it would be totally impractical and many of us would object to it, rightly so. I was merely suggesting the only way I see we could figure out what the "going" rates are. Naturally, that will never happen. The conclusion is that there simply isn't any means to figure it out.
The only thing I see for the moment that seems pretty clear is that the ten cent mark seems to be some kind of a standard. If you go below it, people assume either that your translations are crap or that you are terrible at doing business. If you charge slightly above, you are earning a living. If you go considerably higher, you're a star.
Personally, I would be interested to know how much agencies charge on average to clients when they pay ten cents to the translator. That wouldn't help figure out how much the "going" rate is, but it would give us a good idea of how much slack we have to raise rates. That, to me, would be more useful than knowing how much people get paid and whether that amount is lower, higher or on par with the same period last year. ▲ Collapse
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| The evil proofreader | Feb 10, 2009 |
Nadejda Vega Cespedes wrote:
A couple years ago, a U.K. agency asked me to proofread a translation into Russian. They seldom get in touch as I charge more that they are willing to pay, but on that occasion their regular proofreader was unavailable and they didn't have much time to find somebody new. So I looked at the text, told the agency when I would be able to deliver considering the amount of correction required, and they got mad at... me! What on earth was going to take me so long? Their regular proofreader had never had problems with that translator, did I really have to spoil the game for everyone?
Exactly. This has happened to me as well. The agency was really puzzled, even if I explained each and every mistake with solid reference information nobody could dispute! However, other agencies I work for are really happy that I am picky and explain the reasons, and are happy to pay all the hours required.
| | | | | What the agencies charge | Feb 10, 2009 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Personally, I would be interested to know how much agencies charge on average to clients when they pay ten cents to the translator. That wouldn't help figure out how much the "going" rate is, but it would give us a good idea of how much slack we have to raise rates.
That varies quite a lot, actually. And it's often not that hard to find out depending on whom you are dealing with. Companies with web-based auto-quoting engines are usually in the dumping game as far as I can see from the prices - I send in files for a "quote" just for fun. One could arrange for a typical file to be send for quotation by a third party; if anyone wants to object that this is "unethical" if there is no intention to contract the translation, I would ask how one should consider the practices of agencies soliciting tests, etc. without indicating that they are serious about rates. There's nothing wrong with a bit of research here.
If I am interested in the markups, I simply ask. And I think that for the most part I get truthful answers. If a client is paying me 1x cents per word and only charging 1x + 20%, I will express my concern about the viability of that company. I want to hear numbers of +50% or much, much higher or I don't give them much of a future (in a number of ways). It's not just a matter of knowing how high I can jack prices, either. Sure, it's good to know that they can absorb my rush and annoyance surcharges without renegotiating with the customer, but I am also interested to know how much play room there is for adding some extra service for what the end customer pays. That may be particularly important in the months to come. Hold the line on prices or raise them, but look for ways to add value.
[Edited at 2009-02-10 08:40 GMT]
| | | | Aniello Scognamiglio (X)
Germany
Local time: 12:58
English to German
+ ...
| THE standard does not exist | Feb 10, 2009 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
The only thing I see for the moment that seems pretty clear is that the ten cent mark seems to be some kind of a standard. If you go below it, people assume either that your translations are crap or that you are terrible at doing business. If you charge slightly above, you are earning a living. If you go considerably higher, you're a star.
Hi Viktoria,
can you explain why the ten cent mark seems to be some kind of a standard? I cannot confirm that at all. I charge and get much more. However, I do not consider myself a star.
You cannot generalize about a whole translation industry because there are so many translation markets (different language pairs, different areas of specialization, different countries etc.)! In my experience, 10 cents is not a standard. At most, it's sort of a psychological "barrier" to translators and agencies (not direct clients).
Business is not about skills and technology alone. Psychology plays a major role. What was true 20 years ago, is still true today: the basic needs of (business) people are pride, pleasure, profit and peace (in Marketing this is known as the 4 Ps).
Thousands of professional translators around the globe should raise their rates considerably! Today, no business can survive without IT. Can businesses survive without translators?
Back to the topic: When translators offer or quote for low-rate projects (to me anything below 10 cents is unacceptable, except in very rare cases) they are telling the outsourcer "you are right, my job is nothing special, I do not deserve more".
| | | | | That's what I was hinting at | Feb 10, 2009 |
Aniello wrote:
In my experience, 10 cents is not a standard. At most, it's sort of a psychological "barrier" to translators and agencies (not direct clients).
That's exactly what I was hinting at. Moreover, when threads are started about a particular job post in which the rate is ridiculous, the job post systematically requests rates below 10 cents (US). I've never seen anybody cry foul over rates of ten cents or more, even in cases where the rate requested by the outsourcer was way below what would have been fair for the type of work offered. So, as you say, there seems to be a psychological barrier, which, from what I personally have observed, is around ten cents.
Aniello wrote:
(to me anything below 10 cents is unacceptable, except in very rare cases)
You said it!
[Edited at 2009-02-10 18:37 GMT]
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| Politeness takes a b(l)ow | Feb 16, 2009 |
It happened today. The ad read:
I have a 2400 job to be translate it into YYY, the requirments are:
Must be XXX Native
Perfect YYY
Have msn/Skype
Great Quality
Deliver ontime
With Experience
The payment for this job is between .03 to .04 USD per word so please send your CV to **** if you are willing to work for this rates.
And i need the job within 8 hours
No intention to brag here, but I fulfill all requisites. My bid ended with:
... however, in view of the aforesaid, I cannot work at the rates you are offering now. If I did, quality would plummet, late deliveries would become the norm, and I would starve.
In any case, you may download my CV from XXX, if your end-client comes to their senses, or you have some better offer in the future.
IMHO the "if you are willing to work for this rates" connotes some contempt for the rates by the outsourcer himself, if that person were able to connote anything in English, considering the reply, as faithfully copied and pasted here as the Windows clipboard is able to do:
then why do you waist my time!!!!!
(quick curtain)
| | | | | Below the waist | Feb 17, 2009 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: then why do you waist my time!!!!! (quick curtain)
Hm... I see a possibility here that the outsourcer is thinking with the part of the back under the waist... Business is not going to be particularly thriving for this person in the long run.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 12:58
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: It happened today. The ad read: I have a 2400 job to be translate it into YYY, the requirments are:
Must be XXX Native
Perfect YYY
Have msn/Skype
Great Quality
Deliver ontime
With Experience
The payment for this job is between .03 to .04 USD per word so please send your CV to **** if you are willing to work for this rates.
And i need the job within 8 hours No intention to brag here, but I fulfill all requisites. My bid ended with: ... however, in view of the aforesaid, I cannot work at the rates you are offering now. If I did, quality would plummet, late deliveries would become the norm, and I would starve.
In any case, you may download my CV from XXX, if your end-client comes to their senses, or you have some better offer in the future. IMHO the "if you are willing to work for this rates" connotes some contempt for the rates by the outsourcer himself, if that person were able to connote anything in English, considering the reply, as faithfully copied and pasted here as the Windows clipboard is able to do: then why do you waist my time!!!!! (quick curtain)
Lovely drama, thank you Jose.
* Applauds *
And what would be "time waisting" ? Is it when you wrap a time calendar around your waist ?
Why is he " waisting" the job board space with his disgraceful and rude offers ?
Another genius looking for the highest quality at the lowest price? Aren't we greedy?
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