| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] | Did I miss something? Thread poster: Madeleine van Zanten
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Rod Walters 
Japan
Local time: 08:57
Japanese to English
| Not realistic | Jul 6, 2009 |
Edward's suggestion is like putting a more widely spaced mosquito screen on your windows in the hope that the mosquitoes will take the hint that you don't like having your blood sucked.
These intermediaries already know they're dirt cheap, but they don't care. If they can find one person to do the job, their mission is accomplished.
| | | | | Ah yes, I see what you mean | Jul 6, 2009 |
ariffo wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
But presumably for that to happen, they would have to be made aware of these stats?
And I'm not sure how that would happen. But I like EV's idea, on the face of it. I assume Edward's suggestion is for that stat to be visible in the particular job page, right below where it says: "Quotes received: Total: XX By language pair: - English to Spanish: XX" -- (ADD) Number of translators refusing this budget: XX
I had originally thought this info would be for job posters only, when they are selecting the criteria for their job posting.
If you put it on the job summary page as you describe, that would work too.
Of course, Rod could be right. Some may know, and not care.
However, some are clearly ignorant of rates that can be achieved, as the thread today with a title along the lines of "England: translating from English, how much..." clearly shows.
[Edited at 2009-07-06 22:49 GMT]
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will not bring us any better paying offers as long as Proz contents itself (through its moderators) to shrug off the fact that its service do not justify the yearly contributions of its members. The site will only move when there are enough members that decide to reconsider their membership.
| | | | | Return on subscription fee | Jul 7, 2009 |
madeleine van zanten wrote:
Good ideas will not bring us any better paying offers as long as Proz contents itself (through its moderators) to shrug off the fact that its service do not justify the yearly contributions of its members. The site will only move when there are enough members that decide to reconsider their membership.
That the jobs section is crawling with starvation-rate offers is beyond dispute - but there is far more to Proz than the jobs section. I haven't the faintest idea how many of my current clients originally contacted me directly through my Proz profile, but I know that in the last 4 years one of them alone has provided me with several thousand euros' worth of business - against subscription fees in the same period of a few hundred. That works out to about a 15-fold return on my investment with just one of the numerous contacts I've had through my profile here.
Funnily enough, I have no intention of reconsidering my membership.
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| But what was the route to finding your profile? | Jul 7, 2009 |
Just a minor "ah, but...." moment
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
but there is far more to Proz than the jobs section. I haven't the faintest idea how many of my current clients originally contacted me directly through my Proz profile, but I know that in the last 4 years one of them alone has provided me with several thousand euros' worth of business (...) just one of the numerous contacts I've had through my profile here.
Your profile can be reached from many places in the site, and a great many of those places do not require you to have paid membersip to be seen and contacted. Here (the forum) being a case in point. Answering questions being another.
Obviously, you may know for a fact that you were contacted because paid membership propels you nearer to the top of the search hits - being the main benefit of paid membership, AFAICT. In which case all well and good. If that is in fact precisely how your customer reached your profile, then clearly your analysis is bang on.
But other people's mileage may vary. For instance, my membership recently lapsed and in the time immediately after this dramatic hammerblow to the Proz income stream, I was assailed by ads telling me that I would be no. 1 on the Fr-Eng IT list if I paid; as it stands, I am no. 730 or something. But for the entire time I was a paid member, I got narry a sniff of interest from that particular area (a couple did contact me as a result of my ramblings on here, however, and I know this 'cos they said so!).
I suppose that, as with all marketing, it is extremely difficult to poinpoint the precise effects of individual measure/steps/actions. One would need a parallel universe, one with paid membership, one without. All I can say is that I have had periods of paid membership and periods without, and I genuinely believe that in my case, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to how often I am contacted.
But if it does to you, I am pleased for you. I'm merely trying to point out that all experience is different. Or more accurately perhaps, that not all experience is the same (if you see what I mean).
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Madeleine van Zanten wrote:
Good ideas will not bring us any better paying offers as long as Proz contents itself (through its moderators) to shrug off the fact that its service do not justify the yearly contributions of its members.
"Justify the yearly contributions"? I hear that phrase tossed about a lot, but it's never really clear what the complainers want to say. So let's be very specific. The annual membership fee is about 100 euros, give or take a bit. How much business do I need to acquire through this portal - in bids won or business attracted through my profile or other presence here - in order to "justify" what I can make in a good hour of translation work? 500 euros per year? 5000 euros per year? More? In every year of paid membership I have done far better than that in both categories, so even though I strongly disagree with some of the things that happen at the management level here, I think it makes business sense to have paid involvement and the various little advantages this offers. However, we have let the second membership in the household lapse for the moment for other reasons, and we'll watch developments to make a decision regarding it.
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Charlie Bavington wrote:
But other people's mileage may vary...
I suppose that, as with all marketing, it is extremely difficult to pinpoint the precise effects of individual measure/steps/actions. One would need a parallel universe, one with paid membership, one without. All I can say is that I have had periods of paid membership and periods without, and I genuinely believe that in my case, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to how often I am contacted.
You're right about there being many paths to contact, Charlie, but I've got a few other things I consider.
(1) Someone else pays for the setup and maintenance of the site. One less IT headache for me and one I am perfectly willing to pay an average of about 30 cents/day for.
(2) I'm a creature of convenience. It's inconvenient for me to wait around for some staff member to find the time to approve my silly postings, though maybe that wouldn't be the case because I have been "verified".
(3) I'm swimming in those useless BrowniZ points, but if I weren't it would be a real PIA to juggle them for the occasional bit of BlueBoard research I like to do.
(4) I have a few more technical options for configuring my profile. I'm not actually using them at the moment, but it's nice to know I can if I ever find time.
However, I do find it a mystery to determine exactly what does attract "profile contacts". Over the long span of my membership I have participated in the forums for less than half the time, and my partner is in many respects a better translator and a better qualified one with far more experience. Yet I have always had a lot more "profile traffic" since I became a member. The only "critical" difference I can see is maybe a few hundred KudoZ points. I don't have time for that game mostly, but the little bit I have invested might explain the difference. We've been unable to figure it out otherwise.
| | | | | Being contacted | Jul 7, 2009 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Just a minor "ah, but...." moment Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
but there is far more to Proz than the jobs section. I haven't the faintest idea how many of my current clients originally contacted me directly through my Proz profile, but I know that in the last 4 years one of them alone has provided me with several thousand euros' worth of business (...) just one of the numerous contacts I've had through my profile here.
Your profile can be reached from many places in the site, and a great many of those places do not require you to have paid membersip to be seen and contacted. Here (the forum) being a case in point. Answering questions being another. Obviously, you may know for a fact that you were contacted because paid membership propels you nearer to the top of the search hits - being the main benefit of paid membership, AFAICT. In which case all well and good. If that is in fact precisely how your customer reached your profile, then clearly your analysis is bang on. But other people's mileage may vary. For instance, my membership recently lapsed and in the time immediately after this dramatic hammerblow to the Proz income stream, I was assailed by ads telling me that I would be no. 1 on the Fr-Eng IT list if I paid; as it stands, I am no. 730 or something. But for the entire time I was a paid member, I got narry a sniff of interest from that particular area (a couple did contact me as a result of my ramblings on here, however, and I know this 'cos they said so!). I suppose that, as with all marketing, it is extremely difficult to poinpoint the precise effects of individual measure/steps/actions. One would need a parallel universe, one with paid membership, one without. All I can say is that I have had periods of paid membership and periods without, and I genuinely believe that in my case, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to how often I am contacted. But if it does to you, I am pleased for you. I'm merely trying to point out that all experience is different. Or more accurately perhaps, that not all experience is the same (if you see what I mean).
I did actually start to write about how to raise the profile of your profile (ahem) here - answering Kudoz, specialising, particpating in the forums (networking, as you point out, is also an important factor in gaining new clients), but then I deleted it - partly because it's all been written elsewhere, partly because just because (I assume) it worked for me, that doesn't mean it will work or has worked for other people, and partly because I don't actually know that clients have found me because of my high ranking in the translator directories - I just assume it.
It's irrelevant in any case. Even if they would all have found me just the same if I wasn't a paying member, I'm still grateful to the site for giving me/them the opportunity - and bunging a hundred-odd euro its way once a year doesn't seem like a particularly high price to pay.
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Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
... partly because just because (I assume) it worked for me, that doesn't mean it will work or has worked for other people...
It's a market penetration issue. I remained a non-paying Proz user for some 5-6 years before deciding to upgrade to membership. The reason is obvious and clearly visible: local demand in my pair, EN-PT, was negligible. When it (viz. the benefit) grew to justify the cost, I became a member.
All this time I have been - and still am - a free user of at least half a dozen Proz-like places. Some of them won't let me bid on ANY jobs, but I'm keeping track of their demand for the services I can offer.
I think any profession should always assess the cost/benefit of any hardware, software, or service they buy. Two examples from different times...
Almost two decades ago I bought my first laser printer for USD 7K. It paid for itself in three months, because very few people had one here at that time.
My web site is a mess... no home page, several scattered pages, each developed with a different program. I know *I* will have to develop all its contents, nobody else. I found one program that will enable me - without investing too much time to learn any radically new stuff - to develop an organized, professional-looking website, for USD 90. Bought it yesterday, and started development immediately. The cheapest web site developer would charge me more to put my content into shape.
So, it's a cost/benefit decision.
Back to the thread issue... it seems to be about paying members in search of a way to de-clutter Proz from thoroughly undesirable jobs. Proz management will have (if they want to go there) to decide where and if a line to separate them should be drawn. Maybe a poll would help them, though I'm not sure the local poll system is tooled to separate votes from members and users.
| | | | | Nub, and indeed crux | Jul 7, 2009 |
Good heavens above, I do believe I have found a point on which we differ
(It seems to me that our views coincide the vast majority of the time - I very often read your posts and think "well that saves me the bother of replying, 'cos she said what I would"!)
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
It's irrelevant in any case. Even if they would all have found me just the same if I wasn't a paying member, I'm still grateful to the site for giving me/them the opportunity - and bunging a hundred-odd euro its way once a year doesn't seem like a particularly high price to pay.
Whereas all things being equal, I do not see the point in paying for anything I can get for nothing when the thing being offered for nothing is being offered by a hard-nosed commercial operation which has made a definite choice about the direction it is taking and knows exactly what it is doing in terms of what is free and what is paid for.
Whereas I could, would and do pay for things I could get for free if the cause is worthy or worthwhile (in a very broad sense). But when it's all about the money, as it is here.... well, that attitude cuts both ways.
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Charlie Bavington wrote: Good heavens above, I do believe I have found a point on which we differ (It seems to me that our views coincide the vast majority of the time - I very often read your posts and think "well that saves me the bother of replying, 'cos she said what I would"!)
That's when you haven't got in first and saved me the bother of replying
Whereas all things being equal, I do not see the point in paying for anything I can get for nothing when the thing being offered for nothing is being offered by a hard-nosed commercial operation which has made a definite choice about the direction it is taking and knows exactly what it is doing in terms of what is free and what is paid for.
Whereas I could, would and do pay for things I could get for free if the cause is worthy or worthwhile (in a very broad sense). But when it's all about the money, as it is here.... well, that attitude cuts both ways.
Fair enough - although I guess that most of my reason for paying up is that I do believe the bump up the rankings I get from membership is probably the reason that clients find me - even if I couldn't prove it.
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