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pricing for 75%-99% reps match
Thread poster: Ward Whittaker

Ward Whittaker  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 04:26
Portuguese to English
Feb 25, 2010

Can anyone give me an idea of a fair price to charge for 75-99% reps match based on a price of US$0.10 per new source word ??
Many agencies have different rep structures and this is quite broad. Can anyone give me an idea for a fair price to quote for this??
Thanks in advance all.
Ward


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Krzysztof Kajetanowicz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 08:26
English to Polish
+ ...
reference Feb 25, 2010

Difficult to say what is "fair" but you'll find some examples here:

http://www.proz.com/forum/sdl_trados_support/144982-standard_discounts_for_fuzzy_matches_100_matches_and_repetitions.html

and here:

http://www.google.pl/search?q=fuzzy%20discounts%20site:proz.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:pl:official&client=firefox-a


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Nadejda Vega Cespedes  Identity Verified

Local time: 08:26
Spanish to Russian
+ ...
100% Feb 25, 2010

The fair rate is 100% of your rate. There is a good clue: if it is you who makes an investment, it is also you who gets the ROI. If agencies didn't pretend it is normal to offer discounts because you bought a pricey piece of software, would you ever consider doing that?

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Tomas Forro  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 08:26
Member (2008)
English to Slovak
+ ...
This is a real world Feb 25, 2010

Nadejda Vega Cespedes wrote:

The fair rate is 100% of your rate. There is a good clue: if it is you who makes an investment, it is also you who gets the ROI. If agencies didn't pretend it is normal to offer discounts because you bought a pricey piece of software, would you ever consider doing that?


Well Nadejda, but we all know this is just a sweet dream. To say how should it be, if... doesn't answer the question.
In the real world, we have to accept the discounts, at least if you want to work as a mainstream translator. There's no point to complain that clients are not fools.
After all, fuzzy matches help us make more work in shorter time, and that's why there are the discounts. Thanks to them, the clients can afford to pay for more content, so most of us profit.

And to answer your question Ward, the fuzzy breakdowns may be indeed very different. But normally there is no point to offer discount for fuzzies below 75% (even if it returns some text, it is usually totally irrelevant).
As for myself, I find 75 - 95% fuzzy matches for about 50% of your full rate quite normal and there might be even bigger discount between 95 and 99 (this is often due to the format and tag penalties while the text is the same). As for the exact matches, 20-30% of the full rate is the usual range, even though some outsourcers may try to rip you off with 10% or even free repetitions.
In that case, I either refuse, or explicitly warn the client that I am going to skip all repetitions without even looking at them.


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Ward Whittaker  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 04:26
Portuguese to English
TOPIC STARTER
thanks all Feb 25, 2010

Thanks for your comments all, although I've been doing this for 11 years, I've found that 95% of agencies don't work with this type of scale, hell most of them don't even know how to use Trados, so for the rare one that does, I normally accept the rate if I think it's fair. Thanks for the tips everyone, this does seem to be a thorny issue, but I decided to go with the 30/60/100 rule. This way I was able to mention to the client that this is a standard Trados recommendation and not just a number pulled from a hat.
I guess in the real world we all know that some agencies screw us with this while charging the client a full per word rate, but what are we to do. cheers, Ward


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xxxmediamatrix
Local time: 04:26
Spanish to English
+ ...
As a "mainstream translator" ... Feb 25, 2010

... with over 30 years in this profession, and as one who has never set eyes on a CAT, let alone used one, I take great exception to this:

Tomas Forro wrote:
...
In the real world, we have to accept the discounts, at least if you want to work as a mainstream translator ...


By all means shoot yourself in the foot with this ridiculous approach to business - but don't try to kill off business for everyone else in the process, by pretending that discounts are the norm. They ain't.

MediaMatrix


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Tomas Forro  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 08:26
Member (2008)
English to Slovak
+ ...
From 70's with love Feb 26, 2010

mediamatrix wrote:
... with over 30 years in this profession, and as one who has never set eyes on a CAT, let alone used one, I take great exception to this

MediaMatrix


Fair enough,
I believe there are even translators who work with typewriter instead of computer nowadays. And that's perfect with me. I fully respect that you don't work with CAT and I never meant to offend anyone with this.
On the other hand, it is obvious that not using CAT is far beyond the mainstream today.
Without it, you can't work on the projects that are pretty common, or even prevailing - localizations, websites, digital media: often packed with tags, and in formats you can't work with if you don't have CAT.
Whether you like it or not, this is the reality. And you can live well as a translator, working on birth certificates or corporate letters, keep on deleting the stuff, line by line, replacing it with the translation. But once I look at the job offers (at least in my language pair), to see what the client require - it is quite clear to me what is the mainstream.
Not to speak about the objective improvements that the CAT bring to the workflow - and to your outcome!

mediamatrix wrote:
By all means shoot yourself in the foot with this ridiculous approach to business - but don't try to kill off business for everyone else in the process, by pretending that discounts are the norm. They ain't.
MediaMatrix


I don't know if they are the norm. I just shared my experience. And I was trying to speak precisely about the topic of this thread. If you don't, sorry, but you're off topic.


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xxxmediamatrix
Local time: 04:26
Spanish to English
+ ...
As we say in the (real, mainstream) translation profession ... Feb 26, 2010

... nonsense!

Tomas Forro wrote:
On the other hand, it is obvious that not using CAT is far beyond the mainstream today.
Without it, you can't work on the projects that are pretty common, or even prevailing - localizations, websites, digital media: often packed with tags, and in formats you can't work with if you don't have CAT.


Localizations, websites, digital media (whatever that means ) may be your idea of 'mainstream translation', but they are insignificant in comparison to the vast majority of worthwhile and well-paying opportunities offered to well-qualified and experienced mainstream translators.


Whether you like it or not, this is the reality.


Your reality, maybe - certainly not mine, nor that of the majority of our colleagues here on Proz.com as a browse through the forums will demonstrate.


And you can live well as a translator, working on birth certificates or corporate letters, keep on deleting the stuff, line by line, replacing it with the translation.

You can, if you want to - it's not my problem. I, for one, have never over-written a line of source text in my life. Personally I prefer 50+ kword technical translations paying €0.20+ per source word for ready-to-print corporate and institutional publications. That's where the mainstream is in this business. That's the work that keeps the global economy running. That's what keeps me in translation rather than branching out into lesser-paid professions such as the law, medcine, or investment banking.


But once I look at the job offers (at least in my language pair), to see what the client require - it is quite clear to me what is the mainstream.
Not to speak about the objective improvements that the CAT bring to the workflow - and to your outcome!

Hmmm... sigh...

mediamatrix wrote - and repeats:
By all means shoot yourself in the foot with this ridiculous approach to business - but don't try to kill off business for everyone else in the process, by pretending that discounts are the norm. They ain't.
MediaMatrix



[Edited at 2010-02-26 01:33 GMT]

[Edited at 2010-02-26 11:34 GMT]


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Nadejda Vega Cespedes  Identity Verified

Local time: 08:26
Spanish to Russian
+ ...
Social engineering in action Feb 26, 2010

Tomas Forro wrote:
Well Nadejda, but we all know this is just a sweet dream.


No, that is how things actually work unless you believe everything agencies tell you.


In the real world, we have to accept the discounts


Ages ago, when I was in the university, a guy called me and offered a part-time job I was willing to consider. He then added, trying to make it sound as natural as possible, "OK, so now you only need to pay us and you are in. You know that is how it works in the real world, right? There are many candidates and few openings."

In a similar vein, I heard a rumor today that a major agency now requires that freelancers use its proprietary CAT tool and pay the agency for using it.

There is no shortage of individuals attempting to trick you into compliance with their absurd requests by faking social proof. The Trados grid is the translation agency's version of canned laughter, except the latter is relatively harmless and the former is not.

Here is a short and insightful paper (pdf) that has nothing to do with translation agencies, but will help you understand what is going on. It was written for systems security experts, but don't be scared off, it's easy reading. Highly recommended to all.


There's no point to complain that clients are not fools.


Your clients' willingness to take advantage of you tells us nothing about their intellect: they may or may not be fools. It does however reveal their opinion about your business skills, and it is not flattering at all.


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Valery Kaminski  Identity Verified
Belarus
Local time: 10:26
Member (2006)
English to Russian
+ ...
Extremes... Feb 26, 2010

Nadejda Vega Cespedes wrote:

...Your clients' willingness to take advantage of you tells us nothing about their intellect: they may or may not be fools. It does however reveal their opinion about your business skills, and it is not flattering at all.


I wonder what the client should think when one tries to charge in full for the text about a half of which are 100% matches. Who's taking advantage of whom?


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ludovic touitou  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:26
Japanese to French
+ ...
My standard rates take into account the use of CAT Tools Feb 26, 2010

I work with a CAT tool, that is my normal way of working. My rates take this productivity factor into account from the beginning.This is why I don't offer upfront discounts for fuzzy matches/reps and ask for 100% of my rate.

Anyway I don't consider FMs have the same relevance if you translate an excel accounting document, video game dialogues or a technical notice, therefore, only a case by case analysis of the actual documents can tell me if extending further discount for FMs is justified.

Also, I fear this opens the door to agencies providing TMs (relevant or not) and being willing to pay only fraction of standard rates pretending that translators generally admit the 30/60/100 rate structure.


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Rad Graban  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:26
English to Slovak
+ ...
It might be a mainstream if... Feb 26, 2010

you specialise in IT, computers, electronics, etc. Ever thought of it Tomas? It has nothing to do with language combination. I'm working in the same pair as you do and was never asked to use CAT. I do occasionally use Wordfast, but it's only when I decide to and I definitely don't offer any discounts for doing so.

Tomas Forro wrote:
But once I look at the job offers (at least in my language pair), to see what the client require - it is quite clear to me what is the mainstream.


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Tomas Forro  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 08:26
Member (2008)
English to Slovak
+ ...
OK, I'm going now Feb 26, 2010

Guys, I don't want to argue with you - especially that this conversation is spamming as it has nothing to do with the topic. I think that writing about how the new technologies are trying to rip you off doesn't belong here.

If someone will find this thread in a couple of months, trying to find out about the fuzzy rates, he/she will see two or three relevant replies and the rest from people who don't even use CAT, or have nothing relevant to say. I mean, what's the point?

So maybe I went too far myself, but at least some part of it was on the initial topic.
And as for this discussion, I'd be happy to explain myself, so as not to look as a high-tech freak who is a mere puppet of the worldwide translation agency conspiracy. But please, let's open some different thread for this.


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Éva Vajda  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:26
English to Hungarian
+ ...
100% agree with Tomas Feb 26, 2010

It seems to me that there are frustrations vented in this thread that may be completely justified, but are not helping the asker.

In my opinion these days it's almost unfathomable to work without a CAT tool while (for example) translating hundreds of pages of user manuals, where there is an expressed need for consistency and the repetition rate can be quite high. From what I have seen so far, all the larger agencies and companies are using them, whether we like it or not. There may be smaller/fewer companies who don't use CAT tools, in that case you can still use the CAT tool for your own benefit, but you don't have to apply the discount, as simple as that.

The 30/60/100 rule seems reasonable to me, too.


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Rad Graban  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:26
English to Slovak
+ ...
Frustration and straying from topic Feb 26, 2010

Disagree with Tomas and Eva. We all expressed our opinions. Some people are suggesting 30/60/90 rule and some believe that there should be no discount regardless whether you are using CAT tool and there are repetitions, or not.

[Edited at 2010-02-26 10:01 GMT]


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