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Discounts and rates for fuzzy match and repetitions
Thread poster: Rosanna Casamassima

Rosanna Casamassima  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 06:33
Member (2006)
English to Italian
+ ...
Mar 4, 2010

Dear all,
I would like to know what is the standard grid of discounts for fuzzy match (from 84 to 95%), 100% match and repetitions when a TM is supplied with the job.
The agency I am working with is not willing to pay for 100% fuzzy match (unless they require you to proofread it) and for repetitions. What is your experience ?
Thank you


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Derek Gill Franßen  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 06:33
German to English
+ ...
Forum Search Mar 4, 2010

I am not at all for granting discounts based on fuzzy matches, but I went ahead and did a forum search for you:

http://www.proz.com/?sp=forum&action=SearchForum&search_pattern=fuzzy%20discount&results_start=1

Good luck (wading through the 5,000+ entries we've had on the subject)!



[Edited at 2010-03-04 10:59 GMT]


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Laura Bissio CT  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 02:33
Member (2008)
English to Spanish
+ ...
no charge for 100% match and repetitions Mar 4, 2010

In my experience, when working with CAT tools, no agency pays for repetitions, and they don´t (usually) pay for 100% match (if they give you the TM) unless they ask you to edit them.
I don't mind; CAT tools have a "translate until fuzzy" function, which allows you to skip these segments.
I had once a very large project with many thousands of 100% matches. In this case, I charged 10% extra for the time spent processing those segments, though they didn't need to be translated or even read.

You'll need to discuss some % of the new-word rate for the fuzzy matches.

Good luck!


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Penelope Ausejo  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 06:33
English to Spanish
+ ...
Not true Mar 4, 2010

I have always been paid for 100% matches and repetitions, even if the end-client was a regular one and the agency provided with an approved TM.

Nowadays, I do not offer discounts for repetitions even though I always use CAT tools.

Laura Bissio CT wrote:

In my experience, when working with CAT tools, no agency pays for repetitions, and they don´t (usually) pay for 100% match (if they give you the TM) unless they ask you to edit them.
I don't mind; CAT tools have a "translate until fuzzy" function, which allows you to skip these segments.
I had once a very large project with many thousands of 100% matches. In this case, I charged 10% extra for the time spent processing those segments, though they didn't need to be translated or even read.

You'll need to discuss some % of the new-word rate for the fuzzy matches.

Good luck!




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Walter Landesman  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 02:33
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
No discounts Mar 4, 2010

I think that if you are required to use a CAT tool in order to count the matches and to do the job, then you should be paid more due to the money you invested in the buying of that tool. That`s another point of view from our side of the street, right?

Anyway, I don`t give any discounts for fuzzy matches and repetitions. Those words should be translated, so I charge based on the total number of words to be translated.

I suggest you to read the link Derek provided above. It will prove to be very helpful.

PS: edited to add this extra link not found in the above search http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/44632-discounts_for_using_cat_tools.html




[Editado a las 2010-03-04 14:28 GMT]


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 05:33
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
No proofreading required? Mar 4, 2010

Rosanna Casamassima wrote:
The agency I am working with is not willing to pay for 100% fuzzy match (unless they require you to proofread it)


But surely, we always proofread every word before delivery (at least once), whether or not our CAT tool has enabled us to simply press one key rather than typing the word(s).

And when we click on the segment, we don't just do it automatically, without thinking - we review the suggestion - that's all it is - and either edit it or accept it as being an appropriate translation in this context


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Monika Elisabeth Sieger  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:33
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
No discount given Mar 5, 2010

Normally I don't give any discount. But I never had been asked to do so until now.
The questions starts already what could be defined as a repetition.
Some agencies even qualify the same wording as an repetition even if the are different figures or numbers mentioned in these repetitions (mainly in contracts for the sale of land).
This is in my opinion no repetition as you still have to be extra careful with the different numbers and figures and therefore you have almost the same amount of work.
But one of my regular clients who sends me documents relating to the same case with the same repetitions again and again gets a discount as my tool translates and inserts these repetitions almost automatically.


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traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 02:33
English to Spanish
+ ...
Where or Who are the agencies Mar 6, 2010

In my application letter to various agencies I have included the following parragraphs. Many never answered. Another kept up an e-mail exchange for about a week or more trying to negotiate something intermediate, till I reckoned they were just pulling my leg and wasting my time. One ackward rule they expected me to accept was the destruction or deleting any file related to the translations performed, when that information is proof of the work performed.

These are the paragraphs:

I only quote revisions case by case because it’s very different to review an incompetent translation (as is the case of a machine translation) or a very competent one. My minimum fee for reviewing is xxx per 1000 wds.

I don’t accept machine calculated repeated texts. I usually don’t do discounts for repeated texts with a similarity below 100% because each change in wording might mean a difference in meaning, and I have to go through it anyway, understand it and decide. So discounts for repeated texts I leave for my own judgment.
When I decide the time scale for delivery of a translation I include the necessary time for reviewing and double checking my output, as well as researching doubtful terms and communicating with the client (through the agency or directly) if need arises, to clear up any linguistic gaps that I may view. In this way I try to reduce reviewing to its minimum expression.
I take my work seriously; I value profoundly the complex methods and competences that it sometimes requires, I consider this an intellectual property and so, usually I am not open to share my TM’s and don’t deliver unclean files.

In another case I sent the following:

I would like to sign the vendor agreement and have a chance to be part of your team, but there are two Sections that I don't perform as part of my business relation with clients:
I take my work seriously; I have an ample and comprehensive educational background and many years of knowledge. I value profoundly the complexities and competencies that sometimes are required by a good translator, and I don't consider that the output of my research to check and re-check, perform analyses and deductions, reading specialized texts to extend my knowledge, compare definitions and processes (sometimes far from my specialties) is something I should share freely. With this in mind I consider my TM's and my glossaries an intellectual property and so (except in rare cases) I am not open to share my glossaries, TM's and I don't deliver unclean files. I can't stop anyone from extracting terminology from my source and target files, but I don't waive intellectual property rights over my knowledge base, in the same way the Coca-Cola sells you a drink but doesn't give you access to the recipe.

And another:

On the other hand, regarding the fuzzy matches, I must insist, even a 99% fuzzy usually means something is different, that difference has to be evaluated, and that means work. I don’t charge my fees for typing, or changing text from one side to the other, but for thinking and taking correct decisions, and even a comma in a different position might change completely the meaning of a sentence. I’m very careful with fuzzy matches because a text, its quality, can be ruined, and specially, the message that was supposed to be expressed, causing the clients image (honesty, sincerity, integrity, loyalty, decency, etc.) can be regarded with suspicion, after reading a sloppy translated 50 or 90% Fuzzy. I don’t like to work in a sloppy fashion, I like to take my time to make sure I’m delivering the best translation I can perform, and I don’t believe its right to be paid 50% for something that, in fact one dedicates 100%.


Someone might consider these answers as aggresive, I prefer to consider them firm and coherent.

Probably I'll never get a job with this kind of agencies that are so brainwashed with the idea that technology is a foolproof way of reducing costs regardless of quality. Luckily machines will never replace the human brain, and were better off controling machines and not letting them control us. Anyway I'm better off without those agencies, even if I charge a bit less.


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 06:33
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
The agency decides (or rather: you both decide) Mar 6, 2010

Rosanna Casamassima wrote:
The agency I am working with is not willing to pay for 100% fuzzy match (unless they require you to proofread it) and for repetitions.


100% matches are usually paid for at the proofreading rate. Repetitions are sometimes paid for at the proofreading rate and sometimes not paid for at all. Ultimately, the client has to pay for it if he wants you to check it. If your client says "we don't pay for 100% matches, so you don't have to check them" then that is reasonable IMO. Many CAT tools have a function to skip or move past 100% matches automatically.

As far as I know, however, match penalties (e.g. difference case, different format etc) are not applied when the pre-job analysis is made, so it is really foolish for a client to ask that 100% matches not be checked.


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Walter Landesman  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 02:33
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Bravo! Mar 6, 2010

traductorchile wrote:

In my application letter to various agencies I have included the following parragraphs. Many never answered. Another kept up an e-mail exchange for about a week or more trying to negotiate something intermediate, till I reckoned they were just pulling my leg and wasting my time. One ackward rule they expected me to accept was the destruction or deleting any file related to the translations performed, when that information is proof of the work performed.

These are the paragraphs:
....I don’t accept machine calculated repeated texts. I usually don’t do discounts for repeated texts with a similarity below 100% because each change in wording might mean a difference in meaning, and I have to go through it anyway, understand it and decide. So discounts for repeated texts I leave for my own judgment.
When I decide the time scale for delivery of a translation I include the necessary time for reviewing and double checking my output, as well as researching doubtful terms and communicating with the client (through the agency or directly) if need arises, to clear up any linguistic gaps that I may view. In this way I try to reduce reviewing to its minimum expression.
I take my work seriously; I value profoundly the complex methods and competences that it sometimes requires, I consider this an intellectual property and so, usually I am not open to share my TM’s and don’t deliver unclean files...
(see the whole text) http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/159500-discounts_and_rates_for_fuzzy_match_and_repetitions.html#1342466


Congratulations, pal!

I fully agree. Perfect content in a perfect wording. All the long debated reasons and explanations are there.

Nobody could have said it better.



PS: edited to shorten the quote.


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Laura Bissio CT  Identity Verified
Uruguay
Local time: 02:33
Member (2008)
English to Spanish
+ ...
let me give an example Mar 6, 2010

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Rosanna Casamassima wrote:
The agency I am working with is not willing to pay for 100% fuzzy match (unless they require you to proofread it)


But surely, we always proofread every word before delivery (at least once), whether or not our CAT tool has enabled us to simply press one key rather than typing the word(s).

And when we click on the segment, we don't just do it automatically, without thinking - we review the suggestion - that's all it is - and either edit it or accept it as being an appropriate translation in this context


Let me explain my experience through an example:
I usually translate machinery manuals. New models come into the market every year, sometimes twice a year. They have a few new features, but are 90% similar to the previous model. They need their own manual, which is -needless to say- an adaptation of the manual of the previous model.
I receive the manual to be translated, a pretranslated file (with the 100% matches already inserted) and the TM containing the translation of the previous manual for concordance search. The whole text may have 120 pages, but only a few need to be translated or edited, the rest needs no further work, not even proofreading -the client wants it just the way it is on the TM.
Why should they pay for the 100% matches?
Why should I proofread/edit them if the client does not need it?
Some segments (fuzzy matches) just need replacing the name of the model, and the like. Why should it be unfair to pay less for those segments?

I understand that agencies are taking this too far and apply discounts whenever they can, but my point is: translators should analyze each case, not just be against discounts without exceptions.


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 05:33
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Point taken, Laura Mar 6, 2010

Laura Bissio CT wrote:
Let me explain my experience through an example:
I usually translate machinery manuals. New models come into the market every year, sometimes twice a year. They have a few new features, but are 90% similar to the previous model. They need their own manual, which is -needless to say- an adaptation of the manual of the previous model.


I can accept that in your particular case you would give discounts of up to 100% and you wouldn't proofread the lot. I imagine that in the "old days" before computerisation you would only have been given excerpts to translate, with a copy of the previous year's manual to refer to for terminology.

I have never been in that situation (and don't expect to be, really) as my specialist areas often call for a bit of creativity and are normally translations done from scratch. In my case, every word in a document needs to be proofread, even the few that have been generated by the CAT tool.

For me, the financial benefits of using a CAT tool are actually quite small, but there is plenty of benefit in having each segment highlighted in turn, with very little possibility of handing in a translation with untranslated text or, more likely, missing text.


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José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 03:33
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Dead right! Mar 6, 2010

Laura Bissio CT wrote:
I understand that agencies are taking this too far and apply discounts whenever they can, but my point is: translators should analyze each case, not just be against discounts without exceptions.


A job where part of the text has already been partially translated deserves special treatment. Sometimes it's difficult to evaluate how much there does not justify even a quick glance, and how much has to be actually translated from scratch. It's up to the PM to earn their dough and find - jointly with the translator - a method to avoid unnecessary rework, and still get whatever really needs to be translated in its right place there.

The problem lies in lazy-PMed agencies that want translators to commit up front, long before the first job is assigned to them, that they'll give generous discounts on fuzzy matches, regardless of what any specific job involves.


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traductorchile  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 02:33
English to Spanish
+ ...
To pay or not to pay that is the accoutability Mar 8, 2010

Laura Bissio CT wrote:
Why should they pay for the 100% matches?
Why should I proofread/edit them if the client does not need it?
Some segments (fuzzy matches) just need replacing the name of the model, and the like. Why should it be unfair to pay less for those segments?


I have not translated any machinery manuals, and although one machine might differ from another just by a few screws, the truth is I have seen on the market some users manuals (washing machines, power drills, etc.) with parts that are absolutely incomprehensible (and I'm not a tecnical twit). Would you, as a serious translator take on the responsability, or accept your name on a 100% fuzzy given by the client and previously translated by an incompetent secretary of the company?
Its true, one has to work, and if one gets too tough, there won't be any. But then they should sign a contract where they accept all responsability for the consequences that may arise in case the machine explodes due to an error in the translation. I think this is why they should pay for the 100% matches or be accountable for the consequences.


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David Jacques  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:33
Member (2011)
German to English
Matches, fuzzy and otherwise Feb 25, 2012

If we all worked on the basis of X cents or whatever per word and that's that this problem would solve itself. Avoid all reductions for repetitions. Especially if the agency intends paying nothing (!) for repetitions. That, folks, is just a scam. I vaguely remember there being a site on the Internet on which the originator of this nonsense actually admittd it was nothing more than a way of reducing translation costs and had little or nothing to do with reality. You will be amazed to hear that this site has apparently vanished ... .
Unfortunately clients have no trouble dividing and ruling. They can always find someone willing to accept the work - virtually regardless of the rate offered.
Some companies seem to be satisfied with Machine Translation, leading to the famous response by a Korean company to a compaint about a gimballed yachting stove that malfunctioned and caused a fire. Their response began "Deeply regret unhappiness with Honourable Glow Fart...".


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