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Even lower rates.
Thread poster: Hans Preisendanz ->Technical Translations<-
Hans Preisendanz ->Technical Translations<-
Mexico
Local time: 20:30
German to Spanish
+ ...
Jan 5, 2004

This morning I received via e-mail following job offer posted at proz:

http://www.proz.com/job/47978

This is the most ridiculous nonsense I have ever seen on this site. Perhaps it is a premature April joke. Maybe the next job poster is going to ask us to pay them to translate, perhaps it will then be tax deductible.

Is this the way this site is going to go? I had in mind getting the platinum membership, but for now I´m thinking it over. I might as well cancel the e-mail notifications, since I do not want to receive that kind of offers.

This kind of job offers are way more than an insult. There are no words for it. When will there be an absolute stop on this? Hopefully soon.


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 03:30
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Sorry, what is your problem? Jan 5, 2004

The rate are 6,5 Eurocents per word. In some areas of our Globus those are quite a good rate, so why do you object so strong??
And if you don´t like the job or other low-rate jobs, simply don´t reply and hope, others will learn and not reply too.
All low rate jobs will stop not when we block them, but ONLY when no one will accept such low rates!

Kind regards
Jerzy


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cendrine marrouat
English to French
+ ...
Even lower rates Jan 5, 2004

Yes, we have to stop accepting rates as low as these ones. This is the only way we can really be recognised as value workforce...

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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 03:30
English to German
+ ...
Jobs posted are only part of the picture Jan 5, 2004

Hans,
I understand your frustration, although I don't necessarily agree with your conclusions. (BTW - you may not be aware that the issue of pricing has been discussed extensively in these forums.)

This is the most ridiculous nonsense I have ever seen on this site. Perhaps it is a premature April joke.

It is not.
That said, I do have a problem if I compare the requirements with the price offered, and of course I wouldn't work for that price level. But then, if someone can make ends meet at that price level - why should I stop him or her from doing so?

Is this the way this site is going to go?

It's a reflection of there the market is already. Right now.

I had in mind getting the platinum membership, but for now I´m thinking it over.

If you're thinking of recouping the membership fee from jobs posted, you may well have a problem (although numerous members have indicated that this is possible) - but these jobs are, of course, just one part of what the site has on offer. I'm perfectly happy to extend my Platinum membership, yet I have not accepted a single job through ProZ.com.

I might as well cancel the e-mail notifications, since I do not want to receive that kind of offers.

The reason why this one "got through" was that the outsourcer failed to enter the pricing data that was mentioned in the body text into the price field on the Job Posting form (had the form been filled properly, you shouldn't have been notified, given the rates you entered in your profile). I have contacted the outsourcer accordingly. In cases where moderators have noted a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rates system (e.g. by specifying "USD 4.00 per 300 words"), we have squashed jobs to enforce compliance.


This kind of job offers are way more than an insult.

Why? If you don't like to quote, don't.

When will there be an absolute stop on this? Hopefully soon.

The moment we stop working in a free market. As independent entrepreneurs, it's our responsibility to make sure we're targeting the right customers with the right product - to achieve a price that we consider "right". But please understand that ProZ.com cannot exercise price controls. In fact, telling professionals that they cannot accept work at a given price could be construed as an insult.

What we (=a team of about a dozen moderators) are working hard is to make sure the process is transparent, and cheaters get banned.

Best regards, Ralf

[/quote]


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baroni  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:30
Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...
http://www.proz.com/job/47965 Jan 5, 2004

Maybe the colleague referred to this job:
http://www.proz.com/job/47965

USD 0,02/word. I deleted it immediately, but 16 people applied for it!


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 03:30
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
This is what I meant Jan 5, 2004

baroni wrote:

Maybe the colleague referred to this job:
http://www.proz.com/job/47965

USD 0,02/word. I deleted it immediately, but 16 people applied for it!


This is the only way to stop such jobs - make the people clear they should not apply for jobs at such low rates. You cannot blame ProZ or any other translator site for the behaviour of fellow translators. And I´m sure, ProZ is the right place, where all of us can learn, what our work is worth.

Kind regards
Jerzy


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sylver  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:30
English to French
Small ray of hope Jan 11, 2004

baroni wrote:

Maybe the colleague referred to this job:
http://www.proz.com/job/47965

USD 0,02/word. I deleted it immediately, but 16 people applied for it!


You don't know if 16 people have applied. All you know is that 16 people have used the bidding system to reply to that offer, but it could very well be 16 disgusted messages telling the "outsourcer" that his rates are for the birds. Lets hope that's what it was.


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xxxIreneN
United States
Local time: 20:30
English to Russian
+ ...
I disagree with Proz having nothing to do with lower rates Jan 11, 2004

To believe in Proz's "total innocence" in supporting low-rate jobs would be the same as believing that a drug dealer has nothing to do with junkees - after all, he only sells it to those who make a choice to do drugs, right? Oh, well, maybe too strong a parallel:)

A whole number of global processes in economy, politics etc. made translation a serious and high-volume business nowadays. Like in any other field, such opportuninies attract all kinds of people. Now, considering the range of easily available CAT tools, machine translation aids, electronic dictionaries etc. there are way too many opportunities for translation products, which I would call "fake". Why in the world should we be supportive of those who think that translation require no education, special skills, hard work, experience? Knowledgewise, quite often we are engineers, doctors, lawyers, you name it, all-in-one, and we agree to be insulted with job offers yielding 3-10 times lower income than that of an engineer with one degree only. Look at dozens of other professions - do you believe dentists would allow offers like "all teeth for 50 bucks" lurk around their professional sites? Why, in your opinion, is it so easy to find a cheap translator but impossible to find a cheap dentist?

Let's see - what if the clients would see "no lower than" and eager 2-centers would disperse naturally? Do you believe the clients will realize that there are serious people here who work for serious rates? Do you think we might, just might bring the reputation of our profession to the level it deserves?

In my opinion, the only thing we shall achieve by simply ignoring such offers quietly and, subsequently, letting them florish would be a total lack of jobs for high-rate translators. Look at the ratio in the above posting: 1 declined - 16 applied. This is not the way to help the situation, this is the way to surrender. Folks, sometimes we slam the door in hope to punish the whole world and make it sorry and crawl after us... ooops, it turns out quite differently - the world does not cry, it laughs with relief. More 2-centers will get more jobs, that's it.

How do you feel when you see in the same job posting that those with Diploma in Translation only please do no apply, must have degree in mechanics, electronics, law, etc., and a few sentences below "lower rates and greater experience will be appreciated".


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David Wallace  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:30
Member (2003)
Russian to English
+ ...
ABSURDLY LOW RATES EXPECTED Jan 24, 2004

This evening, Feb. 23, 2004, there are 2 jobs from agencies which post insultingly low rates:

http://www.proz.com/jobs/48938

"German Company Documentation" - 5000 words, which they want translated at US $0.04 per word!

Close on the heels of this outrage is the following:

http://www.proz.com/jobs/48936
"Spanish Legal Documents", 4000 words, to be translated for US $0.05 per word!

This seems to be a clear trend: more and more companies are posting jobs with stipulated rates that nobody can live on. Why bother--you could make more money working at McDonald's!

As always, the problem is that some people appear to be bidding on these jobs. Unless, and we can always hope, the other "bids", like mine, were offers to do the translations for a REASONABLE rate, not for slave-labor rates.

Wake up, people! If you devalue yourself, others are going to think you must not be worth much and will gladly pay you less than you are worth!


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xxxMarc P  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:30
German to English
+ ...
Never mind the price Jan 24, 2004

Wake up, people! If you devalue yourself, others are going to think you must not be worth much and will gladly pay you less than you are worth!


David,

This point is made time and time again on ProZ. Unfortunately, it hides the real issue. Bids for a third or less of the going rate should surely set alarm bells ringing regarding the standard of work actually being delivered. Simply encouraging bucket-shop providers and amateurs to raise their prices isn't going to do anything for professional standards, which are the real issue at stake.

Just my two cents.

Marc


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lien
Netherlands
Local time: 03:30
English to French
+ ...
I agree with Irene Jan 24, 2004

IreneN wrote:

To believe in Proz's "total innocence" in supporting low-rate jobs would be the same as believing that a drug dealer has nothing to do with junkees - after all, he only sells it to those who make a choice to do drugs, right? Oh, well, maybe too strong a parallel:)

Let's see - what if the clients would see "no lower than" and eager 2-centers would disperse naturally?


In my opinion, the only thing we shall achieve by simply ignoring such offers quietly and, subsequently, letting them florish would be a total lack of jobs for high-rate translators. [...] This is not the way to help the situation, this is the way to surrender.

[/quote]

The idea to set a minimum rate to a job offer will discourage the slaves merchants.


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 03:30
English to German
+ ...
Not that simple, I'm afraid Jan 24, 2004

Hi Lien,
The idea to set a minimum rate to a job offer will discourage the slaves merchants.


This has been discussed many time already, so I'll keep it short: Leaving aside the issue of whether a venue that is not a party to any transaction should intervene in the negotiation process between two able and willing parties, ProZ.com cannot simply impose a minimum rate without running significant legal risks.

From an economic perspective, setting minimum rates is an illusion, I'm afraid. Setting your own minimum rates (and sticking to them) is a reality.

Regards, Ralf

PS I fully agree with Marc: making prospective customers aware of professional standards is the real issue. This means that we need to market ourselves professionally, and defend our target prices rather than calling for someone else to regulate the problem away.

[Edited at 2004-01-24 17:33]


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writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
no dear colleague, you're wrong Jan 25, 2004

baroni wrote:

Maybe the colleague referred to this job:
http://www.proz.com/job/47965

USD 0,02/word. I deleted it immediately, but 16 people applied for it!


17 people bid:-)
(ps-convert it into € cents and it becomes even more pathetic).

[Edited at 2004-01-25 13:00]


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Ildiko Santana  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 18:30
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...

MODERATOR
How do you know those were bids? Jan 25, 2004

baroni wrote:
USD 0,02/word. I deleted it immediately, but 16 people applied for it!


As far as I know, bids are confidential, only the bidder and the outsourcer can see them. Third parties are only able to see the *number* of bids. It might sound naive, but I am hoping that those "bids" were merely responses to the outsourcer, trying to educate them a little bit on translation rates. I used to do that in the past, though I got tired of it. There's just too many of these ridiculous offers. The only way to stop agencies from posting at McDonalds rates is by *not accepting* jobs from them. Which remains a dream, I'm afraid. But that's a whole different story, and is *definitely* not ProZ's fault!

[Edited at 2004-01-25 20:14]


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baroni  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:30
Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...
Maybe I am too realistic... Jan 25, 2004

ildiko wrote:

baroni wrote:
USD 0,02/word. I deleted it immediately, but 16 people applied for it!


As far as I know, bids are confidential, only the bidder and the outsourcer can see them. Third parties are only able to see the *number* of bids. It might sound naive, but I am hoping that those "bids" were merely responses to the outsourcer, trying to educate them a little bit on translation rates. I used to do that in the past, though I got tired of it. There's just too many of these ridiculous offers. The only way to stop agencies from posting at McDonalds rates is by *not accepting* jobs from them. Which remains a dream, I'm afraid. But that's a whole different story, and is *definitely* not ProZ's fault!

[Edited at 2004-01-25 20:14]


[Edited at 2004-01-25 20:22]


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