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Exploitation of labor
Thread poster: Nahit Karataşlı

Nahit Karataşlı  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 15:35
English to Turkish
+ ...
Nov 11, 2011

“60 day payment term or more is the exploitation of labor, and it is NOT ACCEPTABLE. I protest this understanding and its supporters whoever they are. Labor deserves respect!”

If you agree with me, please copy the sentence above and paste it into your reply to this topic.

Kind Regards,
Nahit Karatasli

[Değişiklik saati 2011-11-11 19:00 GMT]


 

Alexander Onishko  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:35
Member (2007)
Russian to English
+ ...
Exploitation of labor Nov 11, 2011

In a way you are right and I also think that such conditions are not acceptable.

But it' free market, anyway. If you are not satisfied with the contract conditions you can either bargain or refuse to work on such conditions, that's all.


 

xxxValerie35
Local time: 14:35
German to English
Secret method Nov 11, 2011

Nahit Karataşlı wrote:

“60 day payment term or more is the exploitation of labor, and it is NOT ACCEPTABLE. I protest this understanding and its supporters whoever they are. Labor deserves respect!”

If you agree with me, please copy the sentence above and paste it into your reply to this topic.

Kind Regards,
Nahit Karatasli

[Değişiklik saati 2011-11-11 19:00 GMT]


I have a secret method for opposing exploitive practices: I shift my work from people and agencies who screw me over to people and agencies who don't.


 

Henry Hinds  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:35
English to Spanish
+ ...
You're not Labor Nov 11, 2011

You're not labor; you're a businessman, so think like one. Take control of the process and set the parameters instead of having others set them for you. Operate in the market in a way that will increase your fortune. Then you will be in charge of your own future.

 

Nahit Karataşlı  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 15:35
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Yes, free market Nov 11, 2011

Alexander Onishko wrote:

In a way you are right and I also think that such conditions are not acceptable.

But it' free market, anyway. If you are not satisfied with the contract conditions you can either bargain or refuse to work on such conditions, that's all.


Sure, I do refuse, but there are a lot of them around, and they still operate this way.

IMHO, the FREE MARKET is understood as "everything, what ever they want to do, is totally free", for those who says "take it or leave it".


 

Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:35
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
More for employees Nov 11, 2011

Alexander Onishko wrote:

In a way you are right and I also think that such conditions are not acceptable.

But it' free market, anyway. If you are not satisfied with the contract conditions you can either bargain or refuse to work on such conditions, that's all.


I too am fully in favour with the end of exploitation. However, I agree with Alexander that we, as freelancers, can only be exploited if we allow ourselves to be. I think perhaps we need to remind ourselves of a few things before getting out of bed in the morning:

I run a small (very small) business
I am my own boss
Agencies are my clients; I am their supplier - without me, they cannot fulfil their clients' requirements
I provide business-to-business services - I am just as much a business as my client is
etc

I know it sounds trite, and it is definitely easier to write it here than to apply it to every business negotiation, but we do owe it to ourselves at least to try. If we think of ourselves as hopelessly exploited, downtrodden servants - well, what hope is there that others will see us as anything different?

By the way, Nahit, that wasn't aimed at you personally, it's just that I don't see ranting and raging as the way to improve things. We need to develop quality client relations through explanation and demonstration, not by waving banners in their faces.

Sheila


 

José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 09:35
English to Portuguese
+ ...
It is not exploitation of labor Nov 11, 2011

Exploitation of labor would be if you owed them $100 and they made you work for $500 worth to pay your debt. As it happens, you owe them nothing, so you can simply say 'no!'.

If it's any kind of exploitation, it's exploitation of ignorance: exploiting professional translators who don't know that, as such, they are NOT financial institutions; that at best they would be amateur moneylenders.

Banks are financial institutions, ergo professional money lenders. They compete against each other on who offers loans at the lowest interest rates. Therefore an amateur money lender (e.g. a professional translator) should lend money at much higher interest rates! Quod erat demonstrandum.

Yet too many translators are not aware of this, so they lend money to their clients charging no interest at all! ... while they should be charging at least twice the interest rates banks (professional money lenders) charge in their respective countries.

I understand that just as I - as a translator - need time to do my work, a translation agency needs time to cleck what I've delivered, solve any issues, and the end-client certainly has the right to do so as well. Then money needs time (not so much in the present online days) to make its way from the client via the translation agency to the translator. Being abusively generous, two weeks is more than enough for all this to happen, regardless of the countries involved.

So anything beyond two weeks from delivery for the payment to reach the translator is unacceptable... unless the translator wants to play amateur money lender, and increases that amount by hefty interest rates.


 

Nahit Karataşlı  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 15:35
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Sheila, but... Nov 11, 2011

Sheila Wilson wrote:
I too am fully in favour with the end of exploitation. However, I agree with Alexander that we, as freelancers, can only be exploited if we allow ourselves to be. I think perhaps we need to remind ourselves of a few things before getting out of bed in the morning:

I run a small (very small) business
I am my own boss
Agencies are my clients; I am their supplier - without me, they cannot fulfil their clients' requirements
I provide business-to-business services - I am just as much a business as my client is
etc

I know it sounds trite, and it is definitely easier to write it here than to apply it to every business negotiation, but we do owe it to ourselves at least to try. If we think of ourselves as hopelessly exploited, downtrodden servants - well, what hope is there that others will see us as anything different?

Dear
By the way, Nahit, that wasn't aimed at you personally, it's just that I don't see ranting and raging as the way to improve things. We need to develop quality client relations through explanation and demonstration, not by waving banners in their faces.

Sheila


Thanks dear Sheila, I didn't take it personally.
I do my business as per my rules, too.
I only want you to protest those operating helicobactersicon_eek.gif)

Regards,


 

Nahit Karataşlı  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 15:35
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Yes, exactly it is exploitation of labor Nov 11, 2011

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

Exploitation of labor would be if you owed them $100 and they made you work for $500 worth to pay your debt. As it happens, you owe them nothing, so you can simply say 'no!'.

If it's any kind of exploitation, it's exploitation of ignorance: exploiting professional translators who don't know that, as such, they are NOT financial institutions; that at best they would be amateur moneylenders.

Banks are financial institutions, ergo professional money lenders. They compete against each other on who offers loans at the lowest interest rates. Therefore an amateur money lender (e.g. a professional translator) should lend money at much higher interest rates! Quod erat demonstrandum.

Yet too many translators are not aware of this, so they lend money to their clients charging no interest at all! ... while they should be charging at least twice the interest rates banks (professional money lenders) charge in their respective countries.

I understand that just as I - as a translator - need time to do my work, a translation agency needs time to cleck what I've delivered, solve any issues, and the end-client certainly has the right to do so as well. Then money needs time (not so much in the present online days) to make its way from the client via the translation agency to the translator. Being abusively generous, two weeks is more than enough for all this to happen, regardless of the countries involved.

So anything beyond two weeks from delivery for the payment to reach the translator is unacceptable... unless the translator wants to play amateur money lender, and increases that amount by hefty interest rates.



If someone is paid in 2+ months after sweating blood, no need beat around the bush, yes, it is exactly, obviously and totally exploitation of labor in the market.

We should NOT FORGET, the translators put bread on the table through translation services, and day by day, increasingly, these ghouls spread and offer their SLAvery conditions in this market.

We must say STOP!

Regards,


 

Nahit Karataşlı  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 15:35
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Listening silence Nov 11, 2011

Valerie35 wrote:

Nahit Karataşlı wrote:

“60 day payment term or more is the exploitation of labor, and it is NOT ACCEPTABLE. I protest this understanding and its supporters whoever they are. Labor deserves respect!”

If you agree with me, please copy the sentence above and paste it into your reply to this topic.

Kind Regards,
Nahit Karatasli

[Değişiklik saati 2011-11-11 19:00 GMT]


I have a secret method for opposing exploitive practices: I shift my work from people and agencies who screw me over to people and agencies who don't.


Mine was listening silence, but not anymore.
It's time to shift to countermeasures.

Regards,


 

Natalie  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 14:35
Member (2002)
English to Russian
+ ...

MODERATOR
You are a FREElancer, so you are FREE to choose Nov 11, 2011

Don't accept jobs from outsourcer(s) if you don't agree with the conditions.

 

Nahit Karataşlı  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 15:35
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Yes, you're right Nov 11, 2011

Natalie wrote:

Don't accept jobs from outsourcer(s) if you don't agree with the conditions.



Yes, you're right Natalie. I am a free freelancer and choose whatever I want, but what about the other people who can not, and had accidents?

As an example, please check the link below, it is also a multiple problem.

http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/211676-kindly_advise_as_client_did_not_pay_me.html

Regards,

[Değişiklik saati 2011-11-11 23:13 GMT]


 

Joshua Pepper  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:35
French to English
+ ...
Irrelevant? Nov 11, 2011

I think the problem at hand in that post is more the fact that the client didn't deliver, rather than the actual payment terms.

I tend to agree with the people quoting free market. I find José's post on exploitation of ignorance particularly pertinent - though I might add that there may also be some exploitation of the fact that many translators perhaps lack self-confidence.

To address this issue, make sure translators know exactly how valuable they are, and how valuable their time is. But on the other hand, if they are too picky, then they may lose all of their business, and not be able to put bread on the table. So at the end of the day, they choose where to draw the line. This is called "business", and is how it should be, if you ask me.

Joshua


 

Natalie  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 14:35
Member (2002)
English to Russian
+ ...

MODERATOR
Yes, irrelevant Nov 11, 2011

That post is about a different case plus the outsourcer's record already contained complaints.

 

Thayenga  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:35
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Interest rates Nov 12, 2011

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

Yet too many translators are not aware of this, so they lend money to their clients charging no interest at all! ... while they should be charging at least twice the interest rates banks (professional money lenders) charge in their respective countries.



This is what I have been practicing with late paying clients. Some accept it while others simply ignore the fee/interest. In fact, one client even stated that "paying late payment fees is against our religion". And this is not a joke.icon_eek.gif

Addressing the intitial issue, we, as freelancers, are able to choose who we're working for and how much we will charge our clients. If clients are unable or perhaps just unwilling to realize the value of our work, then we shouldn't be working for them. However, lately I have noticed that agencies tend to seek their native speakers in countries where the per capita income is generally low and/or base the budget on the average income in their country which results in USD 0.02 per word offers.


 
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