Trados : love it or hate it
Thread poster: Williamson

Williamson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:31
Flemish to English
+ ...
Mar 6, 2012

I know, T. has been discussed ad nauseam:

You can love the tool or hate the tool:


depending on whether you are an outsourcer or a translator.

A job offer seen from both sides:

language x >language y
7370 words with more than 5000 100% reps.
Software : Trados 2009 (obligatory)
Deadline:xxxx
Budget 0.08 euro/word.
Trados calculation with reps 284, VAT excluded.
------------
Loss for the translator : Without Trados 7370*0.08=589-284=305.6

Profit for the outsourcer:
7370 words at say 0.12 cents to the end-customer.
=884.4 euros -284 paid to translator=600

Trados: A money-machine for outsourcers.

Which side would you like to be on?

[Edited at 2012-03-06 10:25 GMT]


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Jan Willem van Dormolen  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 18:31
English to Dutch
+ ...
Disagree Mar 6, 2012

I'm a translator.

Without Trados (or other TM tool): a tedious job that'll cost me hours.
With Trados (or other TM tool): a simple job that's done in a jiffy, leaving me time and energy to do more simple jobs that are done in a jiffy, boosting my hourly income to well beyond what I'ld earn without Trados.

I know what I choose.

This is actually _experience_, not ideology. I used to work without Trados (and other TM tools). I've seen what happened to my output (in work done) and input (in money) after I purchased Trados. Within three months, I had earned back the cost of the program. Facts, my friend, facts. Not theoretical calculations.


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Williamson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:31
Flemish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
A calculator Mar 6, 2012

I am a calculator. It is all about the money and productivity tools, machine-translation and voice-recognition are tools to make more cash, not to lose vast amounts by not getting paid for 100% repetitions, which I just leave out of translations. It is all about figures and the result on your bank-account, not words.

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Vladimír Hoffman  Identity Verified
Slovakia
Local time: 18:31
Member (2009)
English to Slovak
+ ...
Sorry, but your calculations are incomplete. Mar 6, 2012

You missed to take into account huge (and I mean it) speed-up in jobs, where Trados is suitable, but not required by a client. In the last autumn I managed to translate more than 120 standard pages (at full rate) in four days. This year I am awaiting a big annual project. Rate is quite low, but owing to Trados I am able to "copy" at leat one third of the translation from the text that I made in previous year. It means that my rate is actually higher by 33%. And I could continue with many other examples.

Moreover, you can acquire an access to entirely new field of translations. If you are so lucky that your capacity is fully used and you can not or do not wish to take new jobs, that it is nothing for you, but I acquired one of my best long-term clients just owing to Trados.

And even if you would not use Trados for repeated text or acquisition of new jobs, you can still use created memories as dictionaries.

For me, Trados (or any other CAT tool) is definitely worth of investment.

Williamson wrote:

I am a calculator. It is all about the money and productivity tools, machine-translation and voice-recognition are tools to make more cash, not to lose vast amounts by not getting paid for 100% repetitions, which I just leave out of translations. It is all about figures and the result on your bank-account, not words.


[Edited at 2012-03-06 18:11 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-03-07 06:58 GMT]


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Jabberwock  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 18:31
Member (2004)
English to Polish
A bit of role-playing Mar 6, 2012

Try a little experiment:

Get two manuals which differ only in details. Send one to any decent-size agency and ask for a quote. When you get one, send the other manual and ask how much it will cost if it is translated after the first one.

I would be very surprised if you do not get a sizable discount on the second document... Which means your calculations are simply wrong.


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Vladimír Hoffman  Identity Verified
Slovakia
Local time: 18:31
Member (2009)
English to Slovak
+ ...
By the way, Mar 7, 2012

are you really complaining that you are not allowed to charge for repetitions, which you do not need to translate at all?



Williamson wrote:

I know, T. has been discussed ad nauseam:

You can love the tool or hate the tool:


depending on whether you are an outsourcer or a translator.

A job offer seen from both sides:

language x >language y
7370 words with more than 5000 100% reps.
Software : Trados 2009 (obligatory)
Deadline:xxxx
Budget 0.08 euro/word.
Trados calculation with reps 284, VAT excluded.
------------
Loss for the translator : Without Trados 7370*0.08=589-284=305.6

Profit for the outsourcer:
7370 words at say 0.12 cents to the end-customer.
=884.4 euros -284 paid to translator=600

Trados: A money-machine for outsourcers.

Which side would you like to be on?

[Edited at 2012-03-06 10:25 GMT]


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Williamson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:31
Flemish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Irrelevant Mar 7, 2012

I began in an era when rates were calculated the German way : Per line of 55 characters, spaces not included, irrespective of repetitions. Nowadays, I still try to avoid word-count.
I am not against CAT-tools. On the contrary, but not as means to give reductions of any kind or help others to earn money on my investment/back.

Agencies sell consistency at double rate paid to translators to their end-customers and don't grant reductions for the use of CAT-tools.
Some grew spectacularly, because of the willingness of translators to work for them at CAT-reduction-rates.

My calculation is not flawed.

It was a real job-offer two days ago:

From : English >Dutch
7370 words with more than 5000 100% reps.
Software : Trados 2009 (obligatory)
Deadline:xxxx
Budget 0.08 euro/word.
Trados calculation with reps 284, VAT excluded.
Outsourcer: a translator.
Content: Chemical. A subject in which the translator is not specialised.

Do you really think that the translator, who outsourced this will sell the translation for 284 euros to the end-customer. A bit naive, don't you think. (S)he might stress consistency and conveniently forget to mention those 5000 100% reps to the end-customer ?

Usually, the final rate to the end-customer is higher than the rate offered to the translator. But let's take 0.08 as the basis for the calculation:

Invoice to the end-customer : 7370 words x 0.08 = 589.6. Payment to the translator= 284. Profit to outsource the translation on this site: 305.6 euros.

If I can, I prefer not to work for agencies.
There are enough sources on the web to find direct customers and avoid this silly bidding system or a system where you have to pay to get access to job-offers.

Whether or not I translate or whether I have to push a button to translate or how fast I can translate with the use of CAT/machine translation/Dragon Dictate combined is irrelevant. What counts is the amount which shows up on my bank-account on time after delivery of the assignment.

By the way, interpreters-also a language profession- don't give discounts of any kind if they have to repeat parts of sentences 1 time or a hundred times.




[Edited at 2012-03-07 13:30 GMT]


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Vladimír Hoffman  Identity Verified
Slovakia
Local time: 18:31
Member (2009)
English to Slovak
+ ...
Sorry, but it is again the same. Mar 7, 2012

It doesn't matter how much and if at all the outsourcing translator or an agency will take the repetitions into account, when charging their final client for the translation. Principally, it is no my business. Question is - do you really want to be paid for repetitions that represent more than 2/3 of the offered job? It would be acceptable in the times of typewriting machines, but not now. I consider the requirement not to charge for repetitions as fully reasonable. No work, no payment, it's fair.
Of course, everybody would love to earn more money for less work and I am not saint at all. So, if a client doesn't ask me not to charge for repetitions, I do not hesitate to charge for them (although, in this case, where the text consists mostly of repetition, I would a least offer some discount). But I do not feel anyhow insulted or bothered, if I am asked to leave some passages or, if Trados is required, to not charge fore repeated text.

As for amount on your account - The higher is time saving owing to CAT, the more time you have for another work (i.e. the more money you can earn).

As for interpreters - Sorry, but now the discussion starts to sound a bit absurd. Even if an interpreter had a possibility to repeat some sentence one hundred times, he or she would still need to be present at the place of interpreting and do his job and he can not earn money elsewhere. Nothing comparable to comfort of Copy & Paste or pressing Translate button. But, frankly, I can not imagine conversation or lecture or any other subject of interpretation, where same sentences would be repeated in significant extent.


Williamson wrote:

I began in an era when rates were calculated the German way : Per line of 55 characters, spaces not included, irrespective of repetitions. Nowadays, I still try to avoid word-count.
I am not against CAT-tools. On the contrary, but not as means to give reductions of any kind or help others to earn money on my investment/back.

Agencies sell consistency at double rate paid to translators to their end-customers and don't grant reductions for the use of CAT-tools.
Some grew spectacularly, because of the willingness of translators to work for them at CAT-reduction-rates.

My calculation is not flawed.

It was a real job-offer two days ago:

From : English >Dutch
7370 words with more than 5000 100% reps.
Software : Trados 2009 (obligatory)
Deadline:xxxx
Budget 0.08 euro/word.
Trados calculation with reps 284, VAT excluded.
Outsourcer: a translator.
Content: Chemical. A subject in which the translator is not specialised.

Do you really think that the translator, who outsourced this will sell the translation for 284 euros to the end-customer. A bit naive, don't you think. (S)he might stress consistency and conveniently forget to mention those 5000 100% reps to the end-customer ?

Usually, the final rate to the end-customer is higher than the rate offered to the translator. But let's take 0.08 as the basis for the calculation:

Invoice to the end-customer : 7370 words x 0.08 = 589.6. Payment to the translator= 284. Profit to outsource the translation on this site: 305.6 euros.

If I can, I prefer not to work for agencies.
There are enough sources on the web to find direct customers and avoid this silly bidding system or a system where you have to pay to get access to job-offers.

Whether or not I translate or whether I have to push a button to translate or how fast I can translate with the use of CAT/machine translation/Dragon Dictate combined is irrelevant. What counts is the amount which shows up on my bank-account on time after delivery of the assignment.

By the way, interpreters-also a language profession- don't give discounts of any kind if they have to repeat parts of sentences 1 time or a hundred times.




[Edited at 2012-03-07 13:30 GMT]





[Edited at 2012-03-07 14:17 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-03-07 14:36 GMT]


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Jabberwock  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 18:31
Member (2004)
English to Polish
End clients are not idiots! Mar 7, 2012

Williamson wrote:

Agencies sell consistency at double rate paid to translators to their end-customers and don't grant reductions for the use of CAT-tools.


This is simply not true. Most end clients have always tried to get reductions for repeatable material, even before CATs even existed. Or tried to reduce the repetitions (I remember one who, in the days when hard copies still ruled, was very creative with scissors!).

Even now I have a client who does use CATs at all. Instead, they diligently remove all repetitions from the files and tell the translators to check the context-less strings with PDF files... I don't need to mention what effect this has on my efficiency. My rates are somewhat higher for this client, but if I did it in CAT, even with a discount, I would be much better off.

Your reasoning is flawed also in another respect: you assume that all jobs could be charged at 100% if not for the bad, bad agencies. The fact is that CATs create some of those jobs - without them they would not be outsourced at all, as they would be too costly for the client.


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Susan van den Ende  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:31
English to Dutch
+ ...
In summary.... Mar 29, 2012

So, let's see:

- You imply that you prefer to work for direct clients.

- They don't know about CAT tools, presumably.

- So if you work for them directly you can charge the full amount for repetitions.

Why would you go on ranting about outsourcers being "dishonest" when you don't even work with them if you can avoid it, and have no way of knowing what they charge the end customer for repetitions... when you yourself obviously pride yourself on happily charging an end customer the full amount?

So, it's OK if you do it, but not if an agency that you know nothing about might perhaps, in your imagination, use the same tactic?

Well, Jabberwock is right that end clients are not fools. They read these forums too. I leave them to draw their own conclusions.


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Williamson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:31
Flemish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
In summary Apr 7, 2012

4 major construction-companies built and rebuilt the skyline of Brussels.
To bid for the work, they have to submit a "cahier des charges". (construction specs).
in both official languages of Brussels i.e. French/Dutch.
On the total budget of a skyscraper, such a construction spec is a drop in the ocean.
Some time ago, I placed a bid, but did not get the translation, ....because my price was too low.
A translator, who works at low prices did not seem professional.
They did not know about trados and did not care.

The agency who go the job had a higher price and of course, they asked for trados-reductions, which will not appear on their invoice.

Isn't that the way things work?

This website is not the only source to get work. A bit of research helps to get jobs.




[Edited at 2012-04-07 14:05 GMT]


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