| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | How to handle cancelled project Thread poster: Jeff Whittaker
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Jeff Whittaker 
United States
Local time: 02:43
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Completed project | Apr 13, 2012 |
Most agencies do. For one-time clients this would not be an issue. In this case, I completed three projects for this client in the past and so perhaps the agency is worried about losing a big client over this. However, in the absence of any type of penalty, there is nothing preventing the client from doing this again.
Alison Sparks wrote:
Can't see why other agencies don't have a similar clause in their contracts either with end clients or translators.
[Edited at 2012-04-13 15:32 GMT]
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 02:43
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | It just gets worse... | Apr 13, 2012 |
This story continues to become more and more bizarre and I am completely exasperated at this point.
The part I left out of the story (for the sake of brevity) was that the project consisted of three files (one large one and two smaller ones). Because the larger file contained a lot of charts, tables and graphs, I started with that one. Two weeks later, the agency contacted me and told me that the client just contacted them and wanted the two smaller files first and the large file de... See more This story continues to become more and more bizarre and I am completely exasperated at this point.
The part I left out of the story (for the sake of brevity) was that the project consisted of three files (one large one and two smaller ones). Because the larger file contained a lot of charts, tables and graphs, I started with that one. Two weeks later, the agency contacted me and told me that the client just contacted them and wanted the two smaller files first and the large file delivered last. They wanted to know how soon I could deliver the smaller files (even though the P.O. called for the entire project to be returned at the end of the month). I responded that I could do that, but that I had already completed over 80% of the large document (save another day’s work to proofread it) and that I had not started on the smaller files. Twelve minutes later, they responded that they were sorry, but the client no longer needed that document AT ALL (why didn’t they know that 12 minutes ago?). They stated that they would issue me an adjusted purchase order. I thought that I would be paid for what I had finished plus the other two documents and all would be well. That was when the round of questions started regarding the work I had finished and they seemed to be suggesting that they only wanted to pay me for what was ready to send to the client (I tried to explain that, technically speaking, none of it was ready to deliver to the client in its current condition, but that it could be made ready in a day’s time and any monetary deduction for this extra work would be nominal anyway). It was then that I decided to make them the offer I described in my initial post because it seemed that there was something sneaky going on.
Today, three days later, having suspended all work, I get a phone message stating that they want me to finish the other two smaller documents because they are still needed at the end of the month and that they do not want to send the client a document that has not been proofread or edited (because even though the client does not need it, the client may try and use it in the future, implying that they wanted me to finish and deliver it), but they did not mention how much they wanted to pay for it. I asked them to please send me a revised purchase order for the two remaining documents and the total words I had already finished (as they originally said they would).
Now they want to get back on the phone and discuss it some more.
Despite my insistence, they are being very vague and obtuse as to how they intend to compensate me for the work I have completed. Of course, if we cannot come to an agreement, I am going to finish what I have done, send it to them and bill them for the full rate at the end of the month.
I have since taken on other work in order to compensate for this missed job and having to now complete this project would cause me to have to work night and day for two weeks.
Do you think I am being scammed or is this some kind of misunderstanding?
[Edited at 2012-04-13 23:36 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 02:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
| This new development is good news for you... | Apr 14, 2012 |
....because it gives you leverage to negotiate exactly what you should be paid, and to demand the money up front.
The most important thing now is to deliver nothing until you've agreed upon what you should be paid...and until you have the money in your hands (which I would define strictly here as the check having cleared).
This might seem harsh to some, but you have been jerked around so much by this agency that you have no grounds to trust them at this point. I also wo... See more ....because it gives you leverage to negotiate exactly what you should be paid, and to demand the money up front.
The most important thing now is to deliver nothing until you've agreed upon what you should be paid...and until you have the money in your hands (which I would define strictly here as the check having cleared).
This might seem harsh to some, but you have been jerked around so much by this agency that you have no grounds to trust them at this point. I also would not be squeamish on the grounds of "preserving a good working relationship." Do you really want to continue to work with this kind of agency? You are not a beginner any more and you don't need to scrounge for crumbs.
In my view, a professional agency, being confronted with such a circumstance, would have ironed this out with the end client alone, and not have approached you regarding any "adjustments." An even more professional agency would have built in some kind of "kill fee" into the original contract that would have kicked in when the end client changed their mind.
So again: this new development is good news for you. I would personally consider asking for the full amount of the original contract agreed, and only very reluctantly negotiate down from there, and I would not even think about any payment terms other than "cleared payment prior to delivery." ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 02:43
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Cancelled project | Apr 14, 2012 |
Problem is that if I do not deliver something by the deadline, would I not be in breach of contract? And if I do deliver something, it has to be finished work because I cannot unilaterally decide to send unfinished work and then decide on how much I should be paid.
[Edited at 2012-04-14 02:12 GMT]
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Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 02:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
| The agency has breached the contract... | Apr 14, 2012 |
...by making you responsible for their mistake. It is a fundamental tenet that agreements between agencies and freelancers, on the one hand, and agencies and end clients, on the other, are separate contracts, and that the former do not depend on the latter (see Tomas' earlier post in this thread).
This violation of your original agreement and of standard practice creates (at least in my view--let others weigh in) a reasonable uncertainty on your part as to whether you ... See more ...by making you responsible for their mistake. It is a fundamental tenet that agreements between agencies and freelancers, on the one hand, and agencies and end clients, on the other, are separate contracts, and that the former do not depend on the latter (see Tomas' earlier post in this thread).
This violation of your original agreement and of standard practice creates (at least in my view--let others weigh in) a reasonable uncertainty on your part as to whether you will later be paid for any work you deliver. So now some other agreement needs to be reached between the two parties.
If you can proofread the work reasonably fast, then do that, tell them you have everything done and, on the basis of the agency having previously indicated that they did not intend to pay you in full for your work, refused your (overly) generous discount, and then prevaricated regarding what and when they plan to pay you, demand full payment prior to delivery. If you can't finish the proofreading within a reasonable amount of time, then offer them options for delivering the un-proofread and proofread versions of what you have.
In essence, as I see it, the agency has behaved toward you in a hostile manner, and you need to protect yourself. If you are worried about a lawsuit, the agency's behavior would seem to give you legal cover, for the reasons I've stated in the previous paragraph. If you make any agreement that allows them to pay you at a later date, you will therefore be taking a big risk that you willl be paid very late or not at all.
In the end, you have to do what you think is best. Good luck!
[Edited at 2012-04-14 03:42 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 02:43
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Cancelled project | Apr 14, 2012 |
Thanks for your support.
I have made them the final offer.
Pay me $1000 now for the document as is (can be watermarked and saved as pdf so no one can use it) or pay me $1300 for the finalized document (which makes no sense since the job was cancelled) or I will finalize it myself and bill you the full $2000 at the end of the month. Also, I am not doing any additional work without payment in advance.
We shall see. Amount is high enough to send to collection... See more Thanks for your support.
I have made them the final offer.
Pay me $1000 now for the document as is (can be watermarked and saved as pdf so no one can use it) or pay me $1300 for the finalized document (which makes no sense since the job was cancelled) or I will finalize it myself and bill you the full $2000 at the end of the month. Also, I am not doing any additional work without payment in advance.
We shall see. Amount is high enough to send to collections and court if necessary.
Robert Forstag wrote:
In the end, you have to do what you think is best. Good luck! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Proceed as planned until a written agreement is reached | Apr 14, 2012 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
Despite my insistence, they are being very vague and obtuse as to how they intend to compensate me for the work I have completed. Of course, if we cannot come to an agreement, I am going to finish what I have done, send it to them and bill them for the full rate at the end of the month.
All this use of the telephone proves that they do not necessarily want to put their proposals --or the discussion, for that matter-- in writing.
If I were you, I would not react to phone conversations and would only change the procedure if they send a written proposal you can accept or if they accept your proposal (which was far too generous). So my suggestion is that you keep working on the project, complete it as planned, and deliver it on schedule. That way you will be able to prove in court that you fulfilled your agreement.
[Edited at 2012-04-14 06:08 GMT]
| | | | | Looks very deliberate to me | Apr 14, 2012 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
All this use of the telephone proves that they do not necessarily want to put their proposals --or the discussion, for that matter-- in writing.
If I were you, I would not react to phone conversations and would only change the procedure if they send a written proposal you can accept or if they accept your proposal (which was far too generous). So my suggestion is that you keep working on the project, complete it as planned, and deliver it on schedule. That way you will be able to prove in court that you fulfilled your agreement.
Completely agree. Imagine how it's going to sound if you have to sue them and then back up your case with "they told me on the phone..." You'll be handing the agency the opportunity to say "no, we never said that!" And the burden of proof will be on you, not them.
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
even though the client does not need it, the client may try and use it in the future
If I ask a builder to build me a conservatory and then tell him halfway through that although I don't really need it any more, I might use it at some point in the future, wouldn't the builder still expect to be paid the full whack?
Jeff, you say the agency may be doing all this because it's worried about losing the client. What kind of agency wants to keep a client that messes it (and you) around like that? If I ran the agency, I'd be more worried about losing a translator known to be reliable than an unreliable client. Please don't go making excuses for the agency, I simply can't believe that it doesn't have the money to pay the heavily discounted fee you haggled yourself down to, and dishonesty is never a good sign. Besides, if it really is that close to bankruptcy, wouldn't it be better to claim what it owes you in full now, before it goes to the wall, and then give it a wide berth? The fact that you've done three jobs for it before doesn't necessarily mean it's acting in good faith. Three really isn't that many. If I ran an agency and wanted to manipulate translators into accepting a fraction of the amount written on the PO, I wouldn't do it every single time because if I did, translators would soon desert me and I'd have no way of fulfilling orders. Instead, I would wait until I had gained a translator's trust and then just try the technique every once in a while, so that they wouldn't think I was doing it deliberately. That would be far more successful.
If I were you, I'd proceed as Tomás suggests and ensure that all future communication with them is in writing.
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Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 02:43
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Cancelled project | Apr 14, 2012 |
All of our communication has been in writing, so there is a record.
They contacted me this morning and claim they do not have the $1000.00 to pay me now and they want me to grant them this discount plus still complete the project.
I replied that the only reason I am giving the discount in the first place is in exchange for them paying me early and not because the work is incomplete. If they want to pay at a later date, the price will be $1800.00 (-$200.00 for one day I ... See more All of our communication has been in writing, so there is a record.
They contacted me this morning and claim they do not have the $1000.00 to pay me now and they want me to grant them this discount plus still complete the project.
I replied that the only reason I am giving the discount in the first place is in exchange for them paying me early and not because the work is incomplete. If they want to pay at a later date, the price will be $1800.00 (-$200.00 for one day I do not have to spend finalizing the project).
I suppose the murky water is when a client cancels a project and you are in the middle of it, how much value does that work have? My thought is that it would be the cost of the work minus the amount of labor it would require to finish it. Since the agency has now informed me that they are unwilling to compensate me for what I have completed thus far, I feel that they have breached the contract and I have no obligation to continue working on a project for which the payment terms are now in dispute.
In addition, because they seem to have so few funds available and do not support their translators when jobs get cancelled, I have no way to know that this will not happen again and I will not be doing any additional work without pre-payment or a revised purchase order with our new terms.
I think they are only concerned about the remainder of the project while at this point, I am only concerned about negotiating terms for what I have already done.
Edited to mention that my e-mails to them are now being returned as undeliverable.
This whole situation (plus some other ones) has made me seriously consider changing careers. I am tired of not being treated like a professional. My mistake was offering them any kind of discount to begin with. Lesson learned.
[Edited at 2012-04-14 12:54 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-04-14 12:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 14:43
Chinese to English
| I wouldn't work while in dispute | Apr 14, 2012 |
I rather disagree with Tomas on this. If an agency - or any client - starts messing me around, the first thing I do is stop working.
I send a demand stating the conditions under which work will be resumed:
1) clear statement/revised PO telling me exactly what work they want done and by what time
2) proposal on how they will pay for any work already completed if it is not to be included on the revised PO (or just a breakdown of work done, telling them this i... See more I rather disagree with Tomas on this. If an agency - or any client - starts messing me around, the first thing I do is stop working.
I send a demand stating the conditions under which work will be resumed:
1) clear statement/revised PO telling me exactly what work they want done and by what time
2) proposal on how they will pay for any work already completed if it is not to be included on the revised PO (or just a breakdown of work done, telling them this is what I expect to be paid for)
I wouldn't do a stroke of work until I got satisfactory answers to those questions in writing. I've never had much trouble with this approach, but I certainly can't see how continuing to work when there is a $1000 dispute is a good strategy. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Be kind to yourself | Apr 14, 2012 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
This whole situation (plus some other ones) has made me seriously consider changing careers. I am tired of not being treated like a professional. My mistake was offering them any kind of discount to begin with. Lesson learned.
Although I can understand why you feel that way, there are ways of minimizing the risk of being taken advantage of. In this case, it sounds like you felt morally obliged to offer them concessions when they said the client didn't need the translation any more. That's good in one sense, as it shows you had good intentions towards them, but the unfortunate thing is that a small number of people use others' moral scruples as a lever with which to manipulate them. Does it mean you can't afford to trust anyone? No, and I don't think this episode or previous ones are a reason to move into another profession. You'll come across a minority of unscrupulous people in other businesses too, and at the same time, there are plenty of good translation agencies out there. So before you consider a career change, there's something else I think you should do.
It's a point I've made in other threads (one of which was started by you, if memory serves), and I'll make it again: if you watch out for certain "red flags", you can reduce the chances of being taken for a ride - and this applies to any field, not just translation. Some time soon, when I get a free day, I'll submit an article about this to the Knowledgebase as I've read a lot of forum postings about agencies trying it on over the past few months. One of my red flags is bad logic or inconsistencies. In your specific case, there are two serious contradictions that leap out at me: the large size of the agency and its professed inability to pay you $1000 right away, and its claim that the client doesn't need the translation but still wants it. That's not a cancellation, Jeff. What they're doing is giving you a mixture of truth and untruth at the same time so that you are still obliged to do the work, but at the same time, you are made to feel that you should offer a massive discount for a translation that isn't "needed". Their hope is that you will overlook the inconsistency. Bouncing your emails back to you is a way of forcing you to speak to them on the phone, as I guess you've realized. Once you start talking to them on the phone, they can make all manner of empty promises that you will never have a record of, just to get you to complete the job. Then they'll either not pay you at all, or pay you less than they said they would on the phone. It's like a game of chess; they have all their moves worked out in advance, and whatever you choose to do now with your remaining pieces, I don't think your chances of winning are great, I'm afraid.
Finally, go easy on yourself. The agency is using devious tactics; you assumed it was acting in good faith, probably because that's what you always do yourself. That speaks highly for you, so you deserve better. Learn to recognize the warning signs and better things should come your way, whether in this line of business or another one.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 02:43
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Peter Shortall wrote:
Thanks Peter for your kind words and encouragement. They really mean a lot. I did not get any sleep last night because I was too upset.
Sometimes it seems as though we are constantly being asked to complete impossible tasks within crazy deadlines, perform miraculous feats and jump through a thousand burning hoops, but yet when it comes time to be paid, then suddenly we are being greedy and inflexible.
It is great to have a site like this and get feedback from others because sometimes its hard to tell whether you are just tired and irritable or whether you really are being taken advantage of.
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Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 02:43
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Update: Final outcome | Jun 17, 2012 |
The agency paid me in full yesterday. I was also informed that the project manager in question was let go and that they wish to continue working with me in the future.
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Wow, I didn't expect that! That's terrific. But will you work for them again?
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 02:43
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | How to handle cancelled project | Jun 18, 2012 |
That's an interesting question. Over the past month, they contacted me seven times with different projects (some big ones) which I turned down due to this pending payment.
Unfortunately, their payment terms are 60 days and all of the other companies I work with pay in 15 days or less and fast payers always get top priority.
Peter Shortall wrote:
Wow, I didn't expect that! That's terrific. But will you work for them again?
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