Pages in topic:   [1 2] >
Word matches - what is acceptable?
Thread poster: Maria Johansson
Maria Johansson  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 14:35
Swedish to English
+ ...
Nov 7, 2013

Dear translators,

I have an issue with my main client in terms of payment for matched/unmatched words.

I was today passed this project and confirmed the word count for ONLY words with no match, but as you can see the difference between the final word count and the "no match" words is huge, either the double or 50%! What is acceptable to get paid for to go ahead with this project? Bearing in mind it is my main client but obviously I dont want to do such a great amount of work for free...

Part 1 -
Match Types Words
Context TM 0
Repetitions 2
100% 319
95% - 99% 267
85% - 94% 282
75% - 84% 320
50% - 74% 44
No Match 1,209
Total 2,443



Part 2 -
Match Types Words
Context TM 0
Repetitions 887
100% 141
95% - 99% 647
85% - 94% 894
75% - 84% 878
50% - 74% 296
No Match 7,643
Total 11,386

Thanks!
Maria

[Edited at 2013-11-07 22:33 GMT]

[Edited at 2013-11-07 22:39 GMT]

[Edited at 2013-11-07 22:48 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Niina Lahokoski  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 15:35
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
+ ...
Must be a mistake Nov 7, 2013

There must be an error somewhere, because there is a huge difference even in the "Total" word count: 2,443 vs. 11,386. A difference that big is unacceptable and can hardly be due to a difference in calculation methods between CAT tools. A good client should understand that. Not only does it affect the money you earn, but there's quite a difference in the time needed to finish the job, as well.
I would point the difference out to the client and ask them for an explanation and/or a solution. It is obvious you cannot be expected to stick to your original quote.

[Edited at 2013-11-07 22:46 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Maria Johansson  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 14:35
Swedish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Sorry, meant to say that there are 2 different parts Nov 7, 2013

I was quoted the no match word count for both parts, but obviously the final word count is the double for the first part, and nearly 4,000 words more for the second part.

I have pointed out the difference but as I was quoted the "no match" count, I am quite sure this is what was meant to go in the P.O. I have asked for a clarification of the final word count in the P.O. and am waiting for a response, but would need advise on what really is acceptable before I say yes and to be in a better position to negotiate.

[Edited at 2013-11-07 22:47 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Niina Lahokoski  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 15:35
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
+ ...
Work for free? Nov 7, 2013

Ah, I misunderstood then. So you mean the client only wants to pay you for "no match" words, and nothing for "fuzzies"? I personally would find the request offending and unacceptable, unless you can just skip the fuzzies altogether without checking/editing. The only "acceptable" for me would be the same as I would charge counting all the fuzzies at the usual "fuzzy rates".
Maybe you could suggest a higher rate for the "no match" words? Although I doubt the client would accept that.

[Edited at 2013-11-07 22:59 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Maria Johansson  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 14:35
Swedish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Good point Nov 7, 2013

Thanks, I could try that, I understand some translation agencies dont pay for 100% matches, but where do you draw the line? 95%? 85%?

Direct link Reply with quote
 

Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:35
English to German
+ ...
CAT tools/"word matches" are often a "tool" for getting free work Nov 7, 2013

Mariawriter wrote:

What is acceptable to get paid for to go ahead with this project? Bearing in mind it is my main client but obviously I dont want to do such a great amount of work for free...


After my careful review/analysis of a prospective project, I propose a per-word rate for the translation (per all words). That price might be reduced if I decide so but I take into account the actual work/time involved before I decide to offer a lower rate.

Unfortunately, that's not how you have been dealing with this client.
I wonder how much you have worked for them already "for free" because of their arbitrary and expected CAT tool discounts.

They will keep pushing you and get away with things until one day you will have to say no thank you, can't do - now this is how it's going to work from now on or simply: no, thank you. (My opinion)


Bernhard


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Maria Johansson  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 14:35
Swedish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Bernhard Nov 7, 2013

unfortunately you are quite right, a fair deal...but I think as Niina says, if they dont want to pay for the fuzzies then I wont touch them or I wont take on the project...not a comfortable situation but given the extra time the work would take, it doesnt make sense otherwise.



[Edited at 2013-11-07 23:09 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Woodstock  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:35
German to English
+ ...
Applying discounts Nov 7, 2013

to individual word matches is just crazy from any perspective. No one should accept that, because you have to translate the rest of the segment around the word, and the meaning may vary from case to case. I don't give match discounts for words. Period. In some rare cases I might grant discounts for segment matches, but it has to be worthwhile. To be fair, CAT tools are of little use in the fields I specialize in now, whereas they were often helpful when I did more technical stuff. Marketing/advertising/PR texts tend not to be repetitive, in fact that would be a negative. This merely as an aside.

Generally speaking, though, translators invest a lot of money in a CAT tool AND you have to pay even more (or earn less) by granting discounts because of it? There's really no logic in that, and the end clients often don't have any idea about CAT tools - it's the agencies who use them as an excuse to tighten the pricing screws. Stand firm and don't agree to work for less than your skills are worth.


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Augusta Habas
France
Local time: 14:35
Italian to French
+ ...
that's pretty common though! Nov 8, 2013

I am very surprised by the answers I find here. I have been facing the same problem many times, and agencies do impose discounts on repetitions, 100% or fuzzy matches. I don't know what is the reasonable scale for these reductions (I think I accept sometimes unfair discounts maybe and I would like to create my own scale now), but even if I was quite shocked by this agency system at the beginning, I acknowledge it is justified not to earn the full amount of a no-match translation if the document is very repetitive. The count is in words, but the matches concern only segments obviously.
My hour rate hasn't lowered with that kind of projects.
I would be happy to read from experienced CAT users who have some interesting views in this regard.


Direct link Reply with quote
 

neilmac  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 14:35
Spanish to English
+ ...
Posts like this Nov 8, 2013

... make me glad I have enough work and regular clients to be able to tell pushy agencies and potential clients like the one described to go and take a flying ... hike.

Absolutely unacceptable. I disagree with force-fed discounts for fuzzies and the like in general; having said that, this week I'm giving one favoured client a spontaneous, unsolicited discount (roughly 20%), simply because I feel like it and to show my appreciation for their loyalty and prompt payment.


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 14:35
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Could it be that they... Nov 8, 2013

Mariawriter wrote:
I was today passed this project and confirmed the word count for ONLY words with no match...


Two possibilities spring to mind, both of which are equally unlikely, but both more likely than the thought of doing fuzzy matches for free. The one possibility is that they want you to ignore fuzzy matches altogether (i.e. do not edit them, for presumably the editor will be tasked with editing them). The other possibility is that they want to pay 100% for non-100% matches (!).

Either way, I think you should verify this with the client. The alternative, namely that they don't want to pay for fuzzy matches at all, is so unlikely that I would be very certain that this is just a mistake.


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:35
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Zero payment is not my idea of a discount Nov 8, 2013

Augusta Habas wrote:
agencies do impose discounts on repetitions, 100% or fuzzy matches.

Some do, that's true, and perhaps for some types of document it's valid. If you need to earn 30€ (say) per hour and using a CAT tool means you can translate a repetitive text so fast that you'd earn 60€ per hour at the normal per-word rate, then you can afford to give a discount. One that puts your per-hour rate somewhere between 30 and 60€; NOT at 0-30€!

Technical translators do sometimes accept zero payment for repetitions and 100% matches, on the basis that they are not even going to check whether they make sense in context - they're just going to accept them. I wouldn't, but I'm a marketing translator and, as Woodstock says, it really doesn't make sense for us. Then there are often discounts agreed (or imposed) for 75-99% fuzzies, on a sliding scale depending on the percentage match. But, AFAIK, 75-99% fuzzies are NEVER free. And 50-74% "matches" should be treated as non-matches if what I've seen of them is at all representative - they need such a lot of editing you're normally better off deleting them.

Earning your normal per-word rate on totally unmatched segments and zero for everything else (i.e. zero for 50% fuzzies) is simply ridiculous. You'll end up with far less than your desired per-hour rate. That is exploitation.


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Niina Lahokoski  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 15:35
Member (2008)
English to Finnish
+ ...
CAT discounts are quite common, depending on the field Nov 8, 2013

I work mainly in the IT field, and in my experience, many big agencies indeed require discounts on fuzzies. I agree with what Sheila says.
Generally, I try to negotiate so that anything below 85% will be paid as a "no match", but some clients insist on having a discount for 75-84% matches, too. 100% and repetitions should only be free if you can skip them altogether (preferably not even then, because they still slow the work down, if there are lots of them).

[Edited at 2013-11-08 11:45 GMT]


Direct link Reply with quote
 

Thayenga  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:35
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
It depends on various factors Nov 8, 2013

Although many agencies demand discounts on 80% - 100% matches and aren't willing to pay for repetitions, this can only work for both parties in case of certain documents, such as repetitive questionnaires, tables and strictly technical or medical translations that require no additional wording.

However, the PM needs to understand that in case of no payment for repetitions and 100% matches the translator is under no obligation to even check the accuracy in regards to syntax and context.

Fuzzy matches should be paid for at least at the normal editing rate, since they usually require some additional work.

This shouldn't apply to any fields which require some creativity such as media, marketing, literature, etc.


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Texte Style
Local time: 14:35
French to English
And when the fuzzy is just plain wrong... Nov 8, 2013

I just recently had to do a translation with lots of segments that had already been translated.

The PM told me that these segments were all from my translations since I'm practically the only one to work for that client.

In fact they were not, and I found myself having to seriously edit even 100% matches. A lot of the time the changes were stylistic (I have worked hard to achieve a smooth style and I don't believe that a change in style can ever work), but there were quite a few mistakes too. The fuzzies probably took me longer than the all-new segments, because I had to read the segment in both languages, assess the English, correct mistakes, then mess around with word order and what not

This agency did previously try to get me to accept fuzzies as segments needing "proofreading" (I charge per hour for proofreading but they obviously thought they could bully me into charging per word, and of course at a ridiculous rate per word) and I refused point blank.

Fuzzies have to be invoiced, and while discounts may sometimes be justified for 100% matches I find it hard to justify discounts for fuzzies.

In a 75% match for example (75% being a figure that is usually high, when we're talking about elections or exam results for example), if there are 8 words, two are wrong. Of course if you're just replacing dark blue with light grey the sentence may not need serious reworking, but I have seen 75% fuzzies where the sentence lifted had nothing to do with the sentence to be translated.


Direct link Reply with quote
 
Pages in topic:   [1 2] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

Word matches - what is acceptable?

Advanced search







Across v6.3
Translation Toolkit and Sales Potential under One Roof

Apart from features that enable you to translate more efficiently, the new Across Translator Edition v6.3 comprises your crossMarket membership. The new online network for Across users assists you in exploring new sales potential and generating revenue.

More info »
Wordfast Pro
Translation Memory Software for Any Platform

Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users! Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value

More info »



Forums
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search