| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Agency reduces fee by 50% - feedback needed Thread poster: earlyesther
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earlyesther
Local time: 07:54
English to Indonesian
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TOPIC STARTER | reconsidering BB entry | Dec 20, 2013 |
Frankly, I'm confuse. Everyone, even outside this forum, has pushed me to do so, but I've said that I'm not going to take any actions... Here is the final note on payment:
Dear Esther: Thank you for your understanding and acceptance of 30% deduction from your fee. Hope to work with you again on a more cautious and professional basis. Rgds
I never deduct and never understand actually, but if I don't stop ... See more Frankly, I'm confuse. Everyone, even outside this forum, has pushed me to do so, but I've said that I'm not going to take any actions... Here is the final note on payment:
Dear Esther: Thank you for your understanding and acceptance of 30% deduction from your fee. Hope to work with you again on a more cautious and professional basis. Rgds
I never deduct and never understand actually, but if I don't stop at this point, this will just be a never-ending email rolls. With such reply, I need to send another email, explaining that this agency got me wrong again, either there might be some problems in his comprehension or he chooses not to understand. And there is no point in being involved in such activity, since I'm not pursuing anything and it will just be a great waste of time (which actually incure greater lost in terms of time spent).
I think if I change my mind, you all will see it in the BB. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Perhaps it's your communication style | Dec 20, 2013 |
esther tanuadji wrote:
I never deduct and never understand actually
I think the last paragraph in the email you sent him caused this. It basically said you had no reason to give him a discount, but you will not argue with him.
That paragraph was supposed to be a moral lesson for him (I guess), to make him feel ashamed or something, but he clearly interpreted it as you gave in and gave up.
It seems to me that a much shorter letter with a simple statement that you want to be paid the whole amount would have been sufficient and better, in order to avoid any possible misunderstanding (either true or pretended).
It is interesting to scroll back to your earlier posts, where you were planning on standing up for yourself, posting on the BB, etc. I am not sure what happened since then, and I am not sure how much money is at stake anyway, but at this point the guy won. And he will do it again, because he can. He just got a confirmation that he can. He will do it again, to you, and to others.
Are you still going to take work from him? Your decision, but think about the message it sends to him. (And the possibility of you getting ripped off again.)
As to you not wanting to make a note in the BB, that is your decision, too, but as you know, the BB is a tool that we all use to manage our risks. You use it, too, right? It only works if we keep each other informed, including the bad experiences, too. If a guy like this gets away with what he seems to be doing, without getting a note on the BB, other translators may fell victims of his tricks, too. Do you not mind that?
Katalin
| | | | earlyesther
Local time: 07:54
English to Indonesian
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TOPIC STARTER | I don't think so | Dec 20, 2013 |
Hi Katalin,
Unfortunately no, it is not a matter of communication style. As you have it, it is a trick. Even before such reply was sent, other translators have referred to his attitude as a ‘tactic’ to avoid financial obligation. And I know that.
I think with such response, the red line has been crossed. I have refrained several times from taking any serious actions on this matter, including posting an entry on the BB. I have showed any means of good faith I can. ... See more Hi Katalin,
Unfortunately no, it is not a matter of communication style. As you have it, it is a trick. Even before such reply was sent, other translators have referred to his attitude as a ‘tactic’ to avoid financial obligation. And I know that.
I think with such response, the red line has been crossed. I have refrained several times from taking any serious actions on this matter, including posting an entry on the BB. I have showed any means of good faith I can. I also have followed the proper procedures available. In case I finally make an entry on the BB, it is an action taken after great deliberation, and it is my expression, or response, to his comment, that with such attitude, it is difficult for me to keep working with him. It will not be an effort to badmouthing this agency over the community, particularly because of some amount of money.
I also know that right after I make an entry on the BB, I (and everyone in this community) will see a bad review on my profile too, complete with his opinions, as he has swore to ‘ruin’ my translation future in case I take any action. I have discussed this on my previous response. However, nevermind on this, I don’t think such bad entry will ruin my future. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Blue Board rules? | Dec 20, 2013 |
Dear Esther,
What a sad and upsetting situation!
From what you say, it seems that this client is using the Blue Board to threaten to ruin your career as a translator if you make a negative entry about him.
As I understand it, it is against the Proz rules for the Blue Board to be used as a threat of any kind.
I think that you should report this to Proz in a "support ticket" before finally deciding whether to make an entry and how to word it if you do. He should not be allo... See more Dear Esther,
What a sad and upsetting situation!
From what you say, it seems that this client is using the Blue Board to threaten to ruin your career as a translator if you make a negative entry about him.
As I understand it, it is against the Proz rules for the Blue Board to be used as a threat of any kind.
I think that you should report this to Proz in a "support ticket" before finally deciding whether to make an entry and how to word it if you do. He should not be allowed to use the BB as a threat in this way.
Best wishes,
Jenny ▲ Collapse
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LEXpert 
United States
Local time: 19:54
Member (2008)
Croatian to English
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| Leave a number, no comment | Dec 20, 2013 |
esther tanuadji wrote:
I also know that right after I make an entry on the BB, I (and everyone in this community) will see a bad review on my profile too, complete with his opinions, as he has swore to ‘ruin’ my translation future in case I take any action.
You don't have to leave a text comment at all. Just leaving a "1" (or whatever number you like) is more than sufficient to get the point across, and deprives them of ammunition for disputing your claim. If you leave no comment, and they respond with a crazed rant, they will end up looking unreasonable, not you.
Threats and extortion, either before or after you make your entry, should be reported to ProZ staff.
| | | | | You seem to be afraid - unnecessarily | Dec 20, 2013 |
esther tanuadji wrote:
I also know that right after I make an entry on the BB, I (and everyone in this community) will see a bad review on my profile too,
So, is this what you are afraid of?
There is no way for him or anybody to post a negative comment on your profile.
Are you referring to the box in the upper right corner that says:
"Feedback from
clients and colleagues
on Willingness to Work Again"
Please note that ONLY POSITIVE comments can be posted there. The system simply does not allow a negative comment. It is either positive, or nothing.
Here is the relevant section of the FAQ:
http://www.proz.com/faq/2518#2518
12.7 - Is "yes" the only possible response to the "willingness to work again" question asked to outsourcers?
For the time being it was decided to ask site users to make entries only for those translators and interpreters with whom they would work again. (In other words, it is not possible to make "no" and "maybe" entries in response to the question, "Would you work again with this person?") This approach is intended to address the misgivings that some members have expressed concerning the possibility of abuse, which should allow focus to be placed on the key role of the feature, i.e. marketing.
In the future, in order to enhance the integrity (and in turn, the marketing effectiveness of the tool), the responses "no" and "maybe" will also be provided to those making WWA entries. If this is disconcerting, bear in mind that a number of protections be in place and besides, by default, WWA entries are visible only to the person on whose behalf they are entered. There will never be an obligation to make WWA entries public.
| | | | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 02:54
Spanish to English
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| At this point | Dec 21, 2013 |
Hope to work with you again on a more cautious and professional basis. Rgds
this sounds more like a worst-case scenario.
| | | | earlyesther
Local time: 07:54
English to Indonesian
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TOPIC STARTER | Hey, I have a better solution – the win-win one, and it works :) | Dec 22, 2013 |
I think now I’m entering a very sensitive subject, which should be discussed carefully. I have tried to avoid it on this forum, but finally I use that in my negotiation. I will start with this disclaimer: if I mention “Chinese” here, it refers to this particular case and has neither political intention nor reference to this ethnic/race/nationality in general, although the general population might show similar attitude and all points I discuss here about Chinese is purely my own subjective... See more I think now I’m entering a very sensitive subject, which should be discussed carefully. I have tried to avoid it on this forum, but finally I use that in my negotiation. I will start with this disclaimer: if I mention “Chinese” here, it refers to this particular case and has neither political intention nor reference to this ethnic/race/nationality in general, although the general population might show similar attitude and all points I discuss here about Chinese is purely my own subjective knowledge, although there is possibility that this subjective knowledge resemble the reality.
Finally I tried to negotiate once again and it works.
I know this agency is Chinese. I’m also Chinese. I can perfectly understand that his actions and words are his effort to safe his face. I’m not that bothered with my own ‘face’, but I know for Chinese face is everything. So, yes, I talked to this agency (now and his wife) once again. I explained that I don’t want this case become a never-ending discussion with no solution. This is not good for both of us. I could understand his concern and thanked him for his invitation to work with him again, despite all of his reasons for not willing to continue working with me. (This way I’m putting his interest above my own interest.) Then I told him that despite all of his concerns, I also have my own concerns. Additionally, I also have my own reasons for not willing to work with him again (This way I ask his understanding on my position/concerns too). After that I repeated that despite this all I really appreciate his invitation and would love to show my goodwill. I followed this with discussion on some other projects. Everything works well. I will still make entry on BB, but this time it is going to be the positive one, not negative. This entry functions as the seal on our deal.
I still have to lose that 30% amount this time, without explicit intent I know this is an effort to save his face , but I have a new business partner, which is good, and I believe I am in the very strong position to negotiate higher rates for future projects, which is also a good solution. I might seem loose now, but I believe this is the win-win solution for both.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Now a little note on dealing with Chinese business-person, not just agencies, but all business in general. First, face is everything. Second, words are stronger than paper/black-on-white. Lawyer is employed only when all discussion are finished and both parties need to formalize their discussion. These two concepts are in contrast with what exists in the west, particularly the lawyer/legal things. In the US, payment issue goes to the collection agencies, this doesn’t work here. Additionally, it is normal for westeners if written communication precedes all discussion and legal advisor is involved since the very beginning of the case, but, again it doesn’t work here. Lawyers are only invited/involved to provide paperworks where both parties can seal the deal. ▲ Collapse
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Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 01:54
Member (2007)
English
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| Personally. I'm speechless | Dec 22, 2013 |
Utterly.
| | | | | The reality is this | Dec 22, 2013 |
esther tanuadji wrote: Finally I tried to negotiate once again and it works.
There was no negotiation. You just reassured him that he can keep abusing you.
I can perfectly understand that his actions and words are his effort to safe his face.
No, his actions and words are his effort to pay you less.
I explained that I don’t want this case become a never-ending discussion with no solution.
You are the one picking up the conversation over and over again, without any effort to get a solution, ignoring the numerous advice you were given by your colleagues here. All you do is reenforcing HIS position that he is free to exploit you.
...thanked him for his invitation to work with him again, despite all of his reasons for not willing to continue working with me. (This way I’m putting his interest above my own interest.)
In other words, you are putting yourself into a position that is nothing more than of a slave. Why???
After that I repeated that despite this all I really appreciate his invitation and would love to show my goodwill.
Why? Again, why on Earth?
Is there anything else that is missing from this story, that you have not told us, that makes you extremely guilty of something, and causes you to be overly forgiving, and willing to submit yourself to more of this?
I will still make entry on BB, but this time it is going to be the positive one, not negative. This entry functions as the seal on our deal.
Really? What kind of deal? How are you going to word it?
In my understanding, this is the "deal" you made:
"He gave me a project with a low rate and an impossible deadline, then agreed to an extended deadline which I kept. He then tried to force a 50% discount on me, referring to my late delivery. I gave him 30% instead, and I am really looking forward to working with him because I enjoy this business relationship very much."
I still have to lose that 30% amount this time, without explicit intent I know this is an effort to save his face ,
Whose effort to save whose face?
but I have a new business partner,
This is not a business partner. It is a ruthless businessman, who is taking advantage of you. And unfortunately you don't seem to notice it.
which is good, and I believe I am in the very strong position to negotiate higher rates for future projects,
Do you really believe this? What will prevent him to do the same thing next time? "Thank you for delivering the job. I regret to inform you that even though we agreed to a rate of X/word, the client does not want to pay that much, so I can only pay you X/2."
I believe this is the win-win solution for both.
In an alternative reality, maybe.
In the reality I live in, (and that reality includes living and doing business in Asia for 8 years, immersed in the culture) your actions make no sense to me at all.
Again, my reaction is based on the information you shared here about this story. As I said, if the story is incomplete, and there are more issues that tip the scale in favor of this outsourcer, in other words, if there are more things that justify your guilt-based actions, then obviously the whole picture is different.
But as it looks now, you simply offered yourself up for more exploitation, more abuse.
[EDIT: It is several hours after I made this post. I just saw your entry of 5 (five) on this outsourcer's BB record, with no comment. How is that helpful for people looking to gain information about this outsourcer and assess their risks? That 5 has about the same truth ("Veritas") value as if I, after completing a free online course on the HarvardX platform over the internet, stated I had an Ivy league education. But again, I seem to be living in a different reality, so never mind.]
[Edited at 2013-12-23 01:02 GMT]
| | | | | Almost afraid to ask: So, what is next? | Dec 22, 2013 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Personally. I'm speechless
Me too.
As Katalin says, what is the point of all this? Talking a lot and not solving anything? Where did all the given advice go?
[Edited at 2013-12-22 21:57 GMT]
| | | | | I would never be able to differentiate | Dec 22, 2013 |
in English, like you did, Katalin - I am just able to understand, but I agree wholeheartedly with your post: we are assisting here to an unprecedented, absolutely illogical and unjustified change of opinion.
What a pity, with all the good advice the OP has been given!
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| Chinese culture? | Dec 23, 2013 |
Obviously, Esther thinks this will work - in the future. I guess she is prepared to lose 30% so she can secure future business with the agency based on a different approach, leveraging Chinese customs (which I'm not familiar with) to make the relationship a reciprocally respectful one. When Esther is back, maybe she will be able to shed more light on this.
Personally, I can see where she is coming from. And only Esther will know if this really is a win-win situation...  ... See more Obviously, Esther thinks this will work - in the future. I guess she is prepared to lose 30% so she can secure future business with the agency based on a different approach, leveraging Chinese customs (which I'm not familiar with) to make the relationship a reciprocally respectful one. When Esther is back, maybe she will be able to shed more light on this.
Personally, I can see where she is coming from. And only Esther will know if this really is a win-win situation... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The agency wins, at any rate | Dec 25, 2013 |
Personally, I can see where she is coming from. And only Esther will know if this really is a win-win situation...
Oh, I have no doubt she'll gets lots more work from this agency in the future. After all, she has just shown them that she'll accept any kind of treatment from them and beg for more. It's only a matter of time before they decide not to pay her at all for her work, but that's her cross to bear when the time comes.
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