| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Agency deliberately paid wrong account Thread poster: Stéphanie Denton (X)
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XXXphxxx (X) 
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:18
Portuguese to English
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| Have they got the full story? | Dec 9, 2013 |
I don't know the full story, but when I look at your profile and see that the agency you ran has a couple of BB entries posted by translators who haven't been paid, I can see that your client may have a different agenda. This is backed up by their comment in response to the feedback you gave them. If there has been a misunderstanding, perhaps you want to iron that out with them. It may make them more amenable to you and swiftly get this issue resolved.
| | | | Stéphanie Denton (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:18
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Not the Company you're talking about | Dec 9, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I don't know the full story, but when I look at your profile and see that the agency you ran has a couple of BB entries posted by translators who haven't been paid, I can see that your client may have a different agenda. This is backed up by their comment in response to the feedback you gave them. If there has been a misunderstanding, perhaps you want to iron that out with them. It may make them more amenable to you and swiftly get this issue resolved.
I don't think you've seen the correct entry, this agency doesn't have any negative feedback other than mine. They're usually great payers...I've tried smoothing it out, they're not budging.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:18
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| I'm talking about the agency YOU ran | Dec 9, 2013 |
Stéphanie Denton wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I don't know the full story, but when I look at your profile and see that the agency you ran has a couple of BB entries posted by translators who haven't been paid, I can see that your client may have a different agenda. This is backed up by their comment in response to the feedback you gave them. If there has been a misunderstanding, perhaps you want to iron that out with them. It may make them more amenable to you and swiftly get this issue resolved. I don't think you've seen the correct entry, this agency doesn't have any negative feedback other than mine. They're usually great payers...I've tried smoothing it out, they're not budging.
You mention in your original post that your agency went bankrupt. I assume you're talking about the one mentioned in your profile, "Translation Lincs", which has recent feedback from translators who haven't been paid. There may be more to it than that but since your client refers to your debts in their response to your feedback I wonder if they don't feel you should be settling your debts first? If they've misunderstood then perhaps you need to talk this through with them.
| | | | Stéphanie Denton (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:18
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Apologies for the misunderstanding | Dec 9, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: Stéphanie Denton wrote: Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I don't know the full story, but when I look at your profile and see that the agency you ran has a couple of BB entries posted by translators who haven't been paid, I can see that your client may have a different agenda. This is backed up by their comment in response to the feedback you gave them. If there has been a misunderstanding, perhaps you want to iron that out with them. It may make them more amenable to you and swiftly get this issue resolved. I don't think you've seen the correct entry, this agency doesn't have any negative feedback other than mine. They're usually great payers...I've tried smoothing it out, they're not budging. You mention in your original post that your agency went bankrupt. I assume you're talking about the one mentioned in your profile, "Translation Lincs", which has recent feedback from translators who haven't been paid. There may be more to it than that but since your client refers to your debts in their response to your feedback I wonder if they don't feel you should be settling your debts first? If they've misunderstood then perhaps you need to talk this through with them.
I am settling debts with service providers despite it being from my own pocket and regardless, the monies said agency owe me is for services I rendered, the contract was between the agency and myself, and therefore even if that were their agenda then it makes no difference to the fact that they owe ME the money.
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| Can the agency get it back? | Dec 9, 2013 |
Stéphanie, I don't think the agency can actually do anything to get the money back that was mistakenly paid to the wrong account, even if they wanted to. To get the money sent back, (in hopes of getting it re-sent to the right account!) something has to happen on your end... maybe your receiver can do something to help out, or perhaps the bank could somehow allow the sum to be transfered to you directly, if you can provide justification about the whole situation... especially considering your d... See more Stéphanie, I don't think the agency can actually do anything to get the money back that was mistakenly paid to the wrong account, even if they wanted to. To get the money sent back, (in hopes of getting it re-sent to the right account!) something has to happen on your end... maybe your receiver can do something to help out, or perhaps the bank could somehow allow the sum to be transfered to you directly, if you can provide justification about the whole situation... especially considering your desperate situation. Some kind of "friendly" settlement is required in your situation I think, because going through the legal channels could take months, and you obviously need an immediate solution.
I imagine that the agency does know it was their mistake (they have a new person in accounting that just started in May of this year, perhaps it really was an honest mistake, twice?), but are reluctant to send you a new transfer to the correct account, as they reckon their chances of getting the money back from the blocked account are very slim? It's not very professional, but perhaps somewhat understandable.
Like Lisa, I had a look at your own blue board profile, and also wondered whether there could be more to this story. You said that you started trading as a sole trader again, but this happened before you filed for personal bankruptcy? Could it somehow be possible that sums owed to you as a sole trader are being seized to pay the debts of the bankrupt company? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Stéphanie Denton (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:18
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Lori Cirefice wrote:
Stéphanie, I don't think the agency can actually do anything to get the money back that was mistakenly paid to the wrong account, even if they wanted to. To get the money sent back, (in hopes of getting it re-sent to the right account!) something has to happen on your end... maybe your receiver can do something to help out, or perhaps the bank could somehow allow the sum to be transfered to you directly, if you can provide justification about the whole situation... especially considering your desperate situation. Some kind of "friendly" settlement is required in your situation I think, because going through the legal channels could take months, and you obviously need an immediate solution.
I imagine that the agency does know it was their mistake (they have a new person in accounting that just started in May of this year, perhaps it really was an honest mistake, twice?), but are reluctant to send you a new transfer to the correct account, as they reckon their chances of getting the money back from the blocked account are very slim? It's not very professional, but perhaps somewhat understandable.
Like Lisa, I had a look at your own blue board profile, and also wondered whether there could be more to this story. You said that you started trading as a sole trader again, but this happened before you filed for personal bankruptcy? Could it somehow be possible that sums owed to you as a sole trader are being seized to pay the debts of the bankrupt company?
I have done all that I can at my end to get it back but they actually need to claim it back themselves, which they are refusing to do!
I did start trading as a sole trader again before the bankruptcy, as the Company was in administration. Personal funds cannot be used to pay Company debts, it is against the law.
| | | | nrichy (X)
France
Local time: 00:18
French to Dutch
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| Same kind of thoughts here | Dec 9, 2013 |
Lori Cirefice wrote:
Like Lisa, I had a look at your own blue board profile, and also wondered whether there could be more to this story. You said that you started trading as a sole trader again, but this happened before you filed for personal bankruptcy? Could it somehow be possible that sums owed to you as a sole trader are being seized to pay the debts of the bankrupt company?
Yes, of course.
Besides, to whom belongs the client? If it was such a big client, it surely makes part of the company's assets, and should be part of the balance sheet. Does the sole trader have the right to take the best clients from the agency? Did the sole trader pay a certain sum to the agency for taking over this client database? When I started as an agency, I had to do that, I had to pay a year of turnover to myself, independent translator (and paid 40% "plus-value" taxes on that). If not, my company would have been stealing clients from another legal entity, not a good start for a new company.
I mean this, let's suppose that your client paid into the wrong account (as you say), maybe it is not the wrong account after all. And by the way, as long as the final balance sheet is not established and closed, the bank account just cannot be closed, clients must have the possibility to pay into it, debts must been settled, and it is part of the liquidation procedure and managed by the liquidator.
Did you have a good accountant? And did you know how to run a business? If yes, how in the hell could it be possible that someone else could take a credit without you as a sole Director knowing that, as you say in your first post?
PS as for your current client, I am afraid that "negative attitude" just means that you have been classified as a problem translator.
[Edited at 2013-12-09 14:05 GMT]
| | | | | More thoughts | Dec 9, 2013 |
Stéphanie Denton wrote:
I have done all that I can at my end to get it back but they actually need to claim it back themselves, which they are refusing to do!
But that doesn't make sense - someone on your end just needs to give a transfer order with the correct bank details of the agency, and send the money back. Why should the agency have to claim anything? Whoever has the authority to send transfers from your blocked account can surely do so, without the agency having to do anything at all? Imagine if just anyone could "claim back" any bank transfer sent, banking doesn't work that way! Only the account owner (or in your case, the receiver?) can send a transfer order, surely?
Stéphanie Denton wrote:I did start trading as a sole trader again before the bankruptcy, as the Company was in administration. Personal funds cannot be used to pay Company debts, it is against the law.
Well that's where I'm confused - you said you filed for personal bankruptcy, but then you mention company debts? I know next to nothing about bankruptcy proceedings in the UK, sorry - it doesn't make sense to me. Nrichy makes some *very* valid points in his/her post. These are issues you should bring up with your accountant and receiver.
Getting back to the main issue - how to get your money quickly? Would it work if you agreed with the agency to drop all legal proceedings against them, in exchange for a letter from them, something like "to whom it may concern, we made xxx and yyy transfers to abc account in error, please send it back". With this letter (check beforehand with the receiver of course!!) you *might* be able to secure the necessary authorization for the return transfer to the agency, or a direct transfer to your personal account. Just brainstorming here... I feel bad that you are taking legal action against this agency, which might take months to resolve and not necessarily in your favor, when you have kids to feed and rent to pay - especially since you are already in the middle of a bankruptcy, and if I understood your previous comments well, a divorce. Do you really need additional conflict and legal issues right now, wouldn't it be easier to find some other way?
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 00:18
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Lori Cirefice wrote:
Someone on your end just needs to give a transfer order with the correct bank details of the agency, and send the money back.
If I understand correctly, the money did not go into Stéphanie's account but into the account of her previous company. As such, it is not "her end" and she can't authorise any transactions on it.
Why should the agency have to claim anything?
Erm... because the work was done by Translator A, and the invoice was from Translator A, but the money for the work that was done by Translator A and for which Translator A had sent an invoice was paid (by the agency, through no fault of Translator A) into the account of Translator B.
Imagine if just anyone could "claim back" any bank transfer sent, banking doesn't work that way! Only the account owner (or in your case, the receiver?) can send a transfer order, surely?
No, you can actually reverse a bank transfer, without consent of the person into whose bank account you transferred they money. You just need to fill in a whole lot of forms and pay a hefty transaction fee to do it. And you have to hope that the money is still there (and in Stéphanie's case it appears that the money is no longer "there" because it was absorbed by an overdraft).
You must have heard stories about people who discovered thousands or millions in their bank accounts, for a few hours only -- those are incorrect transfers that were reversed.
| | | | Claire Cox
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:18
French to English
+ ...
Samuel Murray wrote:
No, you can actually reverse a bank transfer, without consent of the person into whose bank account you transferred they money. You just need to fill in a whole lot of forms and pay a hefty transaction fee to do it. And you have to hope that the money is still there (and in Stéphanie's case it appears that the money is no longer "there" because it was absorbed by an overdraft).
You must have heard stories about people who discovered thousands or millions in their bank accounts, for a few hours only -- those are incorrect transfers that were reversed.
Actually, Samuel, I think in the UK, it is precisely the account holder who has been credited who has to reverse the transfer. This is what the banking ombudsman has to say about it:
"Where the complaint is that the money was delayed, did not reach its destination, or was collected by the wrong person, it will normally be necessary for us to look at the audit trail provided by the financial business for the transaction - so that we can decide for ourselves what probably happened to the money.
If we decide that the problem the consumer has complained about was caused (or was made significantly worse) by something the financial business did wrong, then we will go on to consider what loss the consumer was caused by this - and what would be fair compensation.
Sometimes we find that the problem was initially caused by something the consumer did wrong - for example, putting the wrong account number or bank code in the recipient details on the transfer request form.
In this case, we will look to see whether the financial business promptly took any reasonable steps open to it, to try to prevent or minimise loss to the consumer.
In assessing compensation, we will consider what the consumer's position would have been, if things had not gone wrong. Where the consumer says there were knock-on consequences, we need to assess how directly these consequences were connected with the error by the financial business."
I had a case this last week where a Parisian agency I haven't worked for since last year paid me some €2000 in error. I noticed of course, and contacted them, but it was up to me to ask my bank to transfer the money back to them, less the charges, and of course they would have lost out on the exchange rates. But as far as I understand it, in the UK, no-one else can just put their hand in your bank account and extract money without your permission - as it should be! Perhaps if the mistake is picked up very quickly, it's possible, but with today's faster payments systems, I think it's unlikely. This is why Stéphanie's best solution is to contact the ombudsman because it's clear that the agency has paid the transfer into the wrong account; how they resolve that with an account under the control of the receiver, I don't know....
I also think it's totally out of order to cast aspersions on Stéphanie's handling of her affairs; when you're in relationships, business, or otherwise, you trust people implicitly. If those relationships break down, your trust can often be shattered and that sounds like precisely what's happened here. I have a colleague who has gone through a very similar thing, ending up in bankruptcy, through no fault of her own, and it quite simply beggars belief that people you trust can be so underhand. On the plus side, Stéphanie, she has come out the other side, re-established her business and her life, and is much wiser (though less trusting) as a result.
I hope it all works out for you.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 00:18
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Claire Cox wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
No, you can actually reverse a bank transfer, without consent of the person into whose bank account you transferred they money. You just need to fill in a whole lot of forms and pay a hefty transaction fee to do it. And you have to hope that the money is still there... Actually, Samuel, I think in the UK, it is precisely the account holder who has been credited who has to reverse the transfer. This is what the banking ombudsman has to say about it...
Claire, I've read that ombudsman piece, but I get the impression that that section applies only to cases in which there is disagreement about what should be done or should have been done by the banks. If the banks (and all other parties involved) are satisfied with a procedure (e.g. the reversal request) then they don't have to involve the ombudsman. That is how I understand the role of the ombudsman -- but of course, I'm no expert in UK banking law.
I had a case this last week where a Parisian agency I haven't worked for since last year paid me some €2000 in error. I noticed of course, and contacted them, but it was up to me to ask my bank to transfer the money back to them, less the charges, and of course they would have lost out on the exchange rates.
A similar thing happened to me -- an agency paid an invoice for EUR 1500 in one month, and then paid the same amount again the next month. I immediately informed them about it, and they asked me to transfer the money back to them, which I did after waiting one week to ensure that the money was truly in my account before "sending it back".
But I think although it is easiest for the account holder to simply transfer the money back, it doesn't mean that that is the only possible way of doing it.
But as far as I understand it, in the UK, no-one else can just put their hand in your bank account and extract money without your permission - as it should be!
The bank where the account is held regularly puts their hands into your account. They put money in and they take money out, all without asking you first.
This is why Stéphanie's best solution is to contact the ombudsman because it's clear that the agency has paid the transfer into the wrong account...
Involving the ombudsman is certainly one of the things that Stéphanie should consider. It is my understanding, however, that with ombudsmen the ombudsman will first ask what you yourself have done to solve the problem, before he tries to solve it for you.
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