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Case closed.
Thread poster: Phoebe Leong

Phoebe Leong  Identity Verified
Malaysia
Local time: 22:37
Member (2015)
English to Malay
+ ...
Sep 15, 2015

Case closed, agency requested to take down the details.

[Edited at 2015-09-15 21:31 GMT]


 

Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:37
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Regrettable Sep 15, 2015

It is regrettable that this has happened. I hope it can be resolved with too much harm being done and at not too great a cost.

However I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate my own view - for future reference - that wherever possible, receiving payments via PayPal for translation jobs is a poor alternative to direct bank transfer - if the bank transfer option is available.

A direct bank transfer, in most cases, provides specific documentation, supplied as a matter of course by most banks, describing the amount received and to what it refers.

This makes it very easy to connect a payment to the job to which it refers, thereby eliminating the regrettable situation described at the top this thread.

I would also reiterate my view that in relation to PayPal, many users of it have encountered difficulties and costs which suggest that PP should always be avoided, and only adopted for handling transactions if all other options have been shown to be unusable.

In the particular case under discussion here, it seems that a payment is due that is legally enforceable and that any delay in paying it might make an unpleasant situation worse.

Perhaps the wisest course of action would be to pay now and resolve any outstanding issues afterwards - difficult though that may be.

[Edited at 2015-09-15 12:42 GMT]


 

Christophe Delaunay  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 16:37
Spanish to French
+ ...
is it my fault for didn't notice the overpayment? Sep 15, 2015

EUR 4119 instead of 411?!icon_eek.gif

 

Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Member (2014)
Danish to English
+ ...
For information Sep 15, 2015

For the information of others, PayPal refunds the fee if you use their refund feature within 60 days of the original transaction: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Marketing/bizui/SendRefund-outside .

That's too late for you, and it isn't the fee that is causing problems either.

As for who pays for the exchange rate loss, you're very unfortunate, as the ringgit suddenly dropped to its lowest level since January 2010 this summer (http://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/exchange/eurofxref/html/eurofxref-graph-myr.en.html).

My immediate reaction would be that they are not responsible for your decision to change money that wasn't yours to another currency, but others may know more about this.

I would try to find a compromise, given that they made a mistake overpaying, and you made a mistake not keeping tab on your PayPal account, and changing money that wasn't yours to another currency.

As for the e-mails you didn't receive, did you check your spam filter?


 

Phoebe Leong  Identity Verified
Malaysia
Local time: 22:37
Member (2015)
English to Malay
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I'm willing to return without any loss made Sep 15, 2015

Tom in London wrote:

It is regrettable that this has happened. I hope it can be resolved with too much harm being done and at not too great a cost.

However I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate my own view - for future reference - that wherever possible, receiving payments via PayPal for translation jobs is a poor alternative to direct bank transfer - if the bank transfer option is available.

A direct bank transfer, in most cases, provides specific documentation, supplied as a matter of course by most banks, describing the amount received and to what it refers.

This makes it very easy to connect a payment to the job to which it refers, thereby eliminating the regrettable situation described at the top this thread.

I would also reiterate my view that in relation to PayPal, many users of it have encountered difficulties and costs which suggest that PP should always be avoided, and only adopted for handling transactions if all other options have been shown to be unusable.

In the particular case under discussion here, it seems that a payment is due that is legally enforceable and that any delay in paying it might make an unpleasant situation worse.

Perhaps the wisest course of action would be to pay now and resolve any outstanding issues afterwards - difficult though that may be.

[Edited at 2015-09-15 12:42 GMT]



What i want to stress here is, i've only got an email informing me this overpayment issue yesterday, already two months after withdrawal made. They said they have sent me emails/letters, but i didn't receive any emails and the home address they used to send the letter was wrong!

If i saw her emails earlier, of course i can return immediately. But at this point of time, i can't see any point why should i bear the exchange rate difference.


 

Phoebe Leong  Identity Verified
Malaysia
Local time: 22:37
Member (2015)
English to Malay
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Everything checked Sep 15, 2015

Thomas T. Frost wrote:

For the information of others, PayPal refunds the fee if you use their refund feature within 60 days of the original transaction: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Marketing/bizui/SendRefund-outside .

That's too late for you, and it isn't the fee that is causing problems either.

As for who pays for the exchange rate loss, you're very unfortunate, as the ringgit suddenly dropped to its lowest level since January 2010 this summer (http://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/exchange/eurofxref/html/eurofxref-graph-myr.en.html).

My immediate reaction would be that they are not responsible for your decision to change money that wasn't yours to another currency, but others may know more about this.

I would try to find a compromise, given that they made a mistake overpaying, and you made a mistake not keeping tab on your PayPal account, and changing money that wasn't yours to another currency.

As for the e-mails you didn't receive, did you check your spam filter?


Yes, I've checked everything in my mailbox, and i also requested her to send a test email again using that particular email address, but again, nothing comes to my mailbox. There's no problem communicating with her using her own email address though.

I'm not trying to lie or anything, i even offered her to access my mailbox using my password, to prove that I'm telling the truth.

[Edited at 2015-09-15 12:55 GMT]


 

Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:37
Member (2008)
Italian to English
But Sep 15, 2015

phoebeleong317 wrote:

....But at this point of time, i can't see any point why should i bear the exchange rate difference.


I know, but can you see any other option?


 

Phoebe Leong  Identity Verified
Malaysia
Local time: 22:37
Member (2015)
English to Malay
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I don't know what to do Sep 15, 2015

Tom in London wrote:

phoebeleong317 wrote:

....But at this point of time, i can't see any point why should i bear the exchange rate difference.


I know, but can you see any other option?


I don't know what to do. T_T


 

Elif Baykara Narbay  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 17:37
German to Turkish
+ ...
Mutual goodwill Sep 15, 2015

In trade (and in agreements of course,) mutual good will is assumed (or stated). Not noticing the overpayment of such an amount or not having received any letter/e-mail on the subject is possible but not very convincing, and the company would assume that this is not true.

What I would do is to answer them immediately (written) and tell that you will pay the overpaid amount (in xxx days). And I would explain all related fees and I would offer to share them.

However (and depending on your agreement with the company), if they prove that they actually have sent e-mails and letters, they can claim the interest for the corresponding period.

It is better to resolve problems in dialogue.


 

Álvaro Espantaleón Moreno  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 16:37
Member (2015)
English to Spanish
I find this hard to believe Sep 15, 2015

unless you run a company (with a decent turnover).

Anyone would notice such a difference.


 

Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Member (2014)
Danish to English
+ ...
You could easily have found out Sep 15, 2015

phoebeleong317 wrote:

What i want to stress here is, i've only got an email informing me this overpayment issue yesterday, already two months after withdrawal made. They said they have sent me emails/letters, but i didn't receive any emails and the home address they used to send the letter was wrong!

If i saw her emails earlier, of course i can return immediately. But at this point of time, i can't see any point why should i bear the exchange rate difference.


phoebeleong317 wrote:

I've made a withdrawal in all balances of my paypal account in late June without checking where's the money come from (this is my practice to perform reconciliation every quarter to check if there is any late payment)


PayPal notifies you instantly by e-mail every time an amount is credited. Didn't you notice that the amount was ten times the amount due, or is €4,119 just petty cash for you? Apparently it isn't, since you say it will be difficult to bear the exchange rate loss, so how could an amount that size go unnoticed? Don't you regularly, at least once a month, check that outstanding invoices are paid, and that the correct amounts have been received? Just as for a bank account, every single transaction is clearly visible on PayPal.

If someone stole €3,000 from your PayPal account, you'd only find out up to three months later. This is not a healthy way of managing an account in a bank or elsewhere.

You should have found out by yourself, within PayPal's 60-day refund deadline, and before changing the money to another currency, that something was wrong. You're not without blame in this.


 

Lori Cirefice  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 16:37
French to English
They should bear the cost of currency difference Sep 15, 2015

They made the mistake, and although you should have noticed their mistake earlier, it is still mostly their fault.

I also find it hard to believe that you didn't notice such a difference.

Are you sure that this is a legitimate company? When I first read your post I thought about some type of overpayment scam, but now I'm wondering if you have been working for them for several years?


 

Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Member (2014)
Danish to English
+ ...
A suggestion Sep 15, 2015

If you can't pay now, you could offer them to provide work for a similar amount. That would show your good faith.

 

Phoebe Leong  Identity Verified
Malaysia
Local time: 22:37
Member (2015)
English to Malay
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
true Sep 15, 2015

Elif Baykara wrote:

In trade (and in agreements of course,) mutual good will is assumed (or stated). Not noticing the overpayment of such an amount or not having received any letter/e-mail on the subject is possible but not very convincing, and the company would assume that this is not true.

What I would do is to answer them immediately (written) and tell that you will pay the overpaid amount (in xxx days). And I would explain all related fees and I would offer to share them.

However (and depending on your agreement with the company), if they prove that they actually have sent e-mails and letters, they can claim the interest for the corresponding period.

It is better to resolve problems in dialogue.


I know everyone will assume that this is not true, but since I'm not an expert in this area, I can't tell either why i didn't receive the emails, and that's why i offered her to check my mailbox to prove that. And of course they can prove that they sent the letter, again the address is not the correct one. If explicit notification is given, then that's fine. But i really know nothing of it in the past few months.


 

Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 15:37
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Unfortunate, but they have rights too Sep 15, 2015

phoebeleong317 wrote:
What i want to stress here is, i've only got an email informing me this overpayment issue yesterday, already two months after withdrawal made. They said they have sent me emails/letters, but i didn't receive any emails and the home address they used to send the letter was wrong!

If i saw her emails earlier, of course i can return immediately. But at this point of time, i can't see any point why should i bear the exchange rate difference.

I can understand you feeling upset about this, but really you committed the error of not checking the amount due against the amount received at the time of receiving it. I mean, if they'd paid too little, you would now be expecting them to pay the rest, wouldn't you? You'd be posting here wanting help to make them pay. I'm afraid you can't have it both ways. When you run a business, you accept the responsibility of performing checks of all kinds (checking client reputation, checking receipt of delivered work, checking payment received, checking that tax authorities have a correct record of income and outgoings...). You really can't expect to depend on the client to do everything right without checking, and then complain when they get something wrong. How would your tax authorities react to you receiving over 4000 for an invoice value of 400? Particularly when I imagine you're only declaring 400 to them. Mine would be accusing me of all sorts of crimes.

i asked for the history of email correspondence and she showed it to me, the account department has sent 3-4 emails to me using their finance email address: finance@xxx.com.

I've double checked the record, seems like the email address is correct

So, they've acted reasonably in notifying you of the error, sending reminders, and now they've escalated what they saw as your refusal to refund what is rightfully theirs. They are also clearly willing to accept their part of the fault for this error, as you say:
They told me that there are willing to bear the cost of the paypal fee of €181.59 but the currency movement is not our responsibility

That seems to me to be a reasonable compromise. If you had checked the amount received at the time, nothing else would have been due. In fact, as Thomas says, the money could have been returned without any cost to either party, and then the client could have paid the correct sum.

So, my own personal opinion (and that's all it is) is that you should accept their offer to pay the PayPal commission, and return the balance due to them. And start checking everything that is paid out by and received into your business, as otherwise you aren't really running your business in an appropriate manner.


 
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