How to identify Non Paying agencies
Thread poster: xxxSoftlingua
xxxSoftlingua
Local time: 05:46
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Aug 14, 2005

How do we identify non paying agency,
If an agency has paid all of its translators always, but is not paying one of its translators for one particular job, possibly because of a quality dispute, is that a non-payer? If an agency pays, but less than the agreed upon amount, is that a non-payer? And at what point can a payment not received(bacause of technical problem with bank) be called non-payment. If any agency pass the 30 day mark, are they officially non-payers ,if they are promising to pay soon.
Definition of a non-payer can be someone who does not pay for work done, ever, and has done so with a number of translators or numerously with one translator. Possibly also someone who has not paid one translator and it clearly looks like they never will because so much time has passed.

suggest plz


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Chiara_M  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:16
French to Italian
+ ...
I think... Aug 14, 2005

If an agency has paid all of its translators always, but is not paying one of its translators for one particular job, possibly because of a quality dispute, is that a non-payer?

In this case, if the agency complains about the translator's work, providing real reasons for this (such as a proofed text which doesn't meet professional standards), it may not be considered a non-payer. Agencies pay for a professional service and why should they pay if they don't have a professional service?

If an agency pays, but less than the agreed upon amount, is that a non-payer?

Yes, it is a non-payer in my opinion. If an amount is agreed then that amount must be paid. If an agency assigns me a 10,000 words project and I only translate 8,000 words, I'm not a good translator, I'm not a pro, of course. The same if an agency offers 100 euros and pays 80 euros.

And at what point can a payment not received(bacause of technical problem with bank) be called non-payment.

In case of technical problems with bank I think it doesn't depend on the agency and this cannot affect an agency reputation.

If any agency pass the 30 day mark, are they officially non-payers ,if they are promising to pay soon.

"To pay soon" means nothing. Payments terms should always be clear: such as 30 days after invoice, end of the month after invoice or something like that. Few agencies (in my experience) are always and perfectly on time but if payments are some days later than agreed and the acency pays indeed, it can't be considered a non-payer.

Definition of a non-payer can be someone who does not pay for work done, ever, and has done so with a number of translators or numerously with one translator. Possibly also someone who has not paid one translator and it clearly looks like they never will because so much time has passed.

I would make some differences. There are non-payers (those who don't pay and that's all), there are bad payers (those who pay less than agreed, those who pay after too many remainders) and there are slow payers (those who always pay but beyond agreed terms).


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 01:16
English to German
+ ...
ProZ.com Termination Policy and BB FAQ Aug 14, 2005

Hi,
How do we identify non paying agency,

Definitions vary; for the purposes of the ProZ.com Blue Board, the ProZ.com Termination Policy is relevant.

If an agency has paid all of its translators always, but is not paying one of its translators for one particular job, possibly because of a quality dispute, is that a non-payer?

Despite the fact that, under the ProZ.com Termination Policy, a minimum of two non-payment cases is required before any action is taken by ProZ.com or its moderators, even a single case of non-payment constitutes - non-payment.

Whether or not quality issues justify non-payment (as opposed to deducting damages incurred from the amount due, for example) varies depending on the jurisdiction(s) involved; in Germany, for example, refusing payment because of quality issues (and without giving the service provider an opportunity to remedy any substantiated defects) is illegal.

As ProZ.com cannot go into the legal details of each case, BB entries are not permitted if a job was delivered late, or where quality issues were raised. (In this context, it is important ot note that 'bad quality' is a favourite excuse for non-payment; in cases of disputed entries, Jobs/BB moderators will ask for evidence of criticism substantiated without delay (IOW: a message informing the service provider that there was a problem, sent without delay after delivery of the work).

If an agency pays, but less than the agreed upon amount, is that a non-payer?

Yes.

And at what point can a payment not received(bacause of technical problem with bank) be called non-payment.

Technical payment problems are clearly within the outsourcer's responsibility (provided that the service provider has correctly indicated payment details, of course).

If any agency pass the 30 day mark, are they officially non-payers ,if they are promising to pay soon.

30 days would only be relevant if that is the agreed payment term - after 30 days, my company already sends out a reminder (as our invoices are payable upon receipt).

A promise "to pay soon" is worthless until the money actually arrives, I'm afraid - I have simply heard this excuse way too often.
I don't quite get the point of such a promise: if an outsourcer has an obligation to pay until a given point in time, it's their responsibility to satisfy that obligation, regardless of whether their customer has paid. (Outsourcing work implies the responsibility of making sure you have the necessary financial resources to honour your obligations.)

Best regards,
Ralf


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xxxSoftlingua
Local time: 05:46
Norwegian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for clarification Aug 14, 2005

I am an outsourcer, so I am sharing my experiance with others

[If an agency pays, but less than the agreed upon amount, is that a non-payer? ]

When I got projects from client, they also assure us to pay on perticular date,so when we use to send it to translators will all instructions,some translator follow the instructions,but few of them never follow the instrcution,as mentioned by client, Then when client need some modification on part,because trranslator didn't follow the instruction, but when we move to that transator, He or she say, that he/she is busy with other assignment,so in this case we have to hire another translator for modification(to save our project),We are geting same money from client, but need to pay to 2 translator for this same work, which was the responsibility of translator to modify according to clients' instruction.
So, dont we have right to cut some amount from 1st translator, because of his/her carelessness we client get back with modifications, and we pay extra amount for modification work, which was completily translator's responsibility.

any comments plz...


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 01:16
English to German
+ ...
What about you own QA? Aug 14, 2005

Hi again,
Some of my comments already answered your last query.

When I got projects from client, they also assure us to pay on perticular date,so when we use to send it to translators will all instructions,some translator follow the instructions,but few of them never follow the instrcution,as mentioned by client,

...which you should discover before forwarding the job to your client, as part of your own quality assurance?

Then when client need some modification on part,because trranslator didn't follow the instruction, but when we move to that transator, He or she say, that he/she is busy with other assignment,so in this case we have to hire another translator for modification(to save our project),We are geting same money from client, but need to pay to 2 translator for this same work, which was the responsibility of translator to modify according to clients' instruction.

In that situation, I take it you did not realise the non-compliance with instructions? How much time passed between delivery of the job by the translator and your request for amendments?

So, dont we have right to cut some amount from 1st translator, because of his/her carelessness we client get back with modifications, and we pay extra amount for modification work, which was completily translator's responsibility.

I have no idea of the legal situation in India (assuming that you agreed with the translator that your contractual agreement with that translator should be governed by Indian law).

Whether or not you're entitled to demand a reduction would depend on whether (i) the translator was given an opportunity to remedy any defects identified by your own QA; (ii) the translator remedied such defects within a reasonable period of time; and (iii) you properly substantiated the alleged problems (simply saying that the "client didn't like it" isn't enough).

Therefore:
- Did you conduct a quality check of the work before submitting it to your client?
- If yes: did that quality check identify any defects?
- How soon after delivery by the translator did you claim quality issues? When doing so, did you substantiate the problems?

Best regards,
Ralf


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 01:16
English to German
+ ...
governing court is a good point Aug 14, 2005

Hello all! When no such agreement pertaining to the governing court of law has been agreed upon, the laws of the service producing country automatically set it. In this case it would be the country the translator lives in. It is good that Ralf has point this out, as it is cruicial and reflects a deep thought. Brandis

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Bilore  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 01:16
English to French
+ ...
My point.... Aug 14, 2005

Softlingua wrote:

How do we identify non paying agency,
If an agency has paid all of its translators always, but is not paying one of its translators for one particular job, possibly because of a quality dispute, is that a non-payer?



In such a case, my own experience is that the translator may grant a discount if the bad quality of his/her translation is proved in some way and if the agency came back to him/her straight away and not after weeks or months....

There are also agencies which will put bad quality forward after not paying the translator and receiving a reminder from him/her, is it fair then?

As for me, a non-paying agency is an agency which agreed on a date of payment and doesn't respect it. Of course, everyone may be faced with problems that may result in a delayed payment but when someone tells you every month that he/she'll pay "next month", I don't think the translator is wrong to call him/her a bad payer.


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Stephen Rifkind  Identity Verified
Israel
Local time: 02:16
Member (2004)
French to English
+ ...
What is 'non-professional' work? Aug 15, 2005

I had a dispute with an agency on another continent. It was a rush job. Fifteen minutes after receiving the work, they questioned the quality. When I asked for the work back for further proofing, they did not do so. After a month of borderline hostile emails, they agreed to pay me half. They sent me a "corrected copy", primarily of restatements, not mistakes.

Is there a defintion of "unprofessional" work? How many mistakes have to be to justify half payment?

Stephen Rifkind
Hebrew/French/Russian to English

[Edited at 2005-08-15 05:19]

[Edited at 2005-08-15 05:20]


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xxxSoftlingua
Local time: 05:46
Norwegian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
non payment Aug 15, 2005

Christine Biloré wrote:

Softlingua wrote:

How do we identify non paying agency,
If an agency has paid all of its translators always, but is not paying one of its translators for one particular job, possibly because of a quality dispute, is that a non-payer?



In such a case, my own experience is that the translator may grant a discount if the bad quality of his/her translation is proved in some way and if the agency came back to him/her straight away and not after weeks or months....

There are also agencies which will put bad quality forward after not paying the translator and receiving a reminder from him/her, is it fair then?

As for me, a non-paying agency is an agency which agreed on a date of payment and doesn't respect it. Of course, everyone may be faced with problems that may result in a delayed payment but when someone tells you every month that he/she'll pay "next month", I don't think the translator is wrong to call him/her a bad payer.



Yes Cristina...
But just think, if some translator work for some agency...and agency is paying him/her regularly, if only one time agency delayed in payment...does it mean Non-Payment..suppose you are working for an agency for last 1 year, they are paying you on regular basis, but suddenly this time(maybe because of some financial reason) agency make excuses to pay you little bit later..will you stop working for that agency...will this agency called a Non -paying agency..and will you start posting mesages against that agency...who is giving you regular work and payment.


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Bilore  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 01:16
English to French
+ ...
the labourer is worthy of his hire.... Aug 15, 2005

Softlingua wrote:



suppose you are working for an agency for last 1 year, they are paying you on regular basis, but suddenly this time(maybe because of some financial reason) agency make excuses to pay you little bit later..will you stop working for that agency...will this agency called a Non -paying agency..and will you start posting mesages against that agency...who is giving you regular work and payment.


It happened to me once, we discussed, the agency paid with one month late and in two instalments though they had not been paid themselves by their clients; good and professional agencies always have money in reserve...they don't wait for the client to pay when the translator did his/her job.

Also, "to pay a bit later" doesn't mean anything....When you agree on a date, you just have to stick to it and can have a delay but waiting several months for a payment isn't reasonable.

If the agency doesn't make any effort to pay for the work done, yes I would consider it a bad payer even if I have worked many years for it.

a little detail: my name is Christine not Cristina


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xxxSoftlingua
Local time: 05:46
Norwegian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
re:payment Aug 15, 2005

Christine Biloré wrote:

Also, "to pay a bit later" doesn't mean anything....When you agree on a date, you just have to stick to it and can have a delay but waiting several months for a payment isn't reasonable.

If the agency doesn't make any effort to pay for the work done, yes I would consider it a bad payer even if I have worked many years for it.


well....what you say if any translator start posting message of non-payment before due date of payment(if you an agency, you will pay hoim/her after this act)......as he/she also delayed to submit translation work...

advice plz...


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 01:16
English to German
+ ...
Point out the facts - payment obligation remains Aug 15, 2005

Hi again,

well....what you say if any translator start posting message of non-payment before due date of payment

Point out the facts.

(if you an agency, you will pay hoim/her after this act)......

But of course! Why would you even consider that your payment obligation could be affected? This is not about courtesy, but about contractual obligations. As such, there is no excuse for delayed payment: it's a breach of a contractual obligation.

as he/she also delayed to submit translation work...

Late delivery may give rise to a reduction in the contractual payment. However, to be on the safe side, this should be clearly pointed out in the purchase order (or other document establishing the contractual agreement between outsourcer and provider).

Best regards,
Ralf


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Bilore  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 01:16
English to French
+ ...
would need to know both opinions..... Aug 15, 2005

Softlingua wrote:


well....what you say if any translator start posting message of non-payment before due date of payment(if you an agency, you will pay hoim/her after this act)......as he/she also delayed to submit translation work...

advice plz...


I would say: "the matter is between you and the translator and tha I may also not judge based on a single opinion" ....but anyway, this is not my job and I'll go back to mine which is translating, good luck!


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