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Outsourcer is requesting my social security id or the national insurance id
Thread poster: xxxBrandis
xxxBrandis
Local time: 09:53
English to German
+ ...
Oct 6, 2006

HI! It seems that the british banks require this information in order to release payment. Is that normal. I have otherwise also have worked for various agencies in england and was never confronted with this kind of trouble. Help! Best Brandis

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Stefan de Boeck  Identity Verified
Belgium
Local time: 09:53
English to Dutch
+ ...
sure, like Oct 6, 2006

Brandis wrote:

HI! It seems that the british banks require this information in order to release payment. Is that normal. I have otherwise also have worked for various agencies in england and was never confronted with this kind of trouble. Help! Best Brandis


this can't be anything but bollocks.
tell them "Kindly go to hell."
all they would require is your IBAN and BIC
here's a link: www.euro.gov.uk/crossborder.asp


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Dr. Andrew Frankland  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:53
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
It could be correct Oct 6, 2006

I have a building society account in the UK and recently had to provide a copy of my Spanish resident's card due to some new EU (what else?) regulation to do with cross-border money laundering. I don't know whether the two cases are related but this might be an explanation.

Andy


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RobinB  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:53
German to English
Utter nonsense Oct 6, 2006

Brandis wrote:
HI! It seems that the british banks require this information in order to release payment.


Says who? You're not opening a UK bank account, are you?


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Fan Gao
Australia
Local time: 17:53
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Definitely not... Oct 6, 2006

Hi Brandis,

I'm British and I've worked for UK banks and I have never heard of that before. Even if you were British and you walked up to the counter to withdraw a large amount from your own account they would want more ID than a NI Card or No.

Beside, from your message it sounds like you have done a job for a UK agency and they are trying to pay you from their own UK bank account. Why on earth would they want your NI no. to withdraw funds and make a payment from their own bank account. It's just ludicrous.

I must say from a lot of the recent messages you've posted, it doesn't sound like you have much luck with agencies at all! I really think you need to be a bit more choosy with the agencies you deal with.

Hope you get it sorted out anyway.

Best wishes,
Mark


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Özden Arıkan  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:53
Member
English to Turkish
Agree that utter nonsense Oct 6, 2006

I have clients in the UK, and I do know that British banks don't have such a requirement - how could they? You are a self-employed person, and s/he is your client not your employer - period! Would s/he be willing to pay your social insurance contributions from now on?

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Angeliki Papadopoulou  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 10:53
Member (2006)
English to Greek
+ ...
Your social security ID? Oct 6, 2006

It doesn't make sense to me - it seems totally irrelevant

Regards
Lina


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Fan Gao
Australia
Local time: 17:53
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
In your case yes.... Oct 6, 2006

Dr. Andrew Frankland wrote:
I have a building society account in the UK and recently had to provide a copy of my Spanish resident's card due to some new EU (what else?) regulation to do with cross-border money laundering. I don't know whether the two cases are related but this might be an explanation.
Andy


Yes....but...that would be because it's your own account. Why would a bank want the NI number of someone who one of their own customers wants to make a payment to?

Like Saitch said...all they are interested in is the full bank details of where the payment is going to...IBAN, BIC, account name and number etc.

Best wishes,
Mark


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 09:53
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
to chinese concept Oct 6, 2006

HI! These are two different situations, for one I was seeking a team and a promising team had failed me, the other I am a service provider, where the outsourcer would like all the above mentioned information. Infact, he is reading this thread just now. Best Brandis

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Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:53
French to English
Take a deep breath Oct 6, 2006

Brandis wrote:

.....where the outsourcer would like all the above mentioned information. Infact, he is reading this thread just now. Best Brandis


Now, who is actually asking you and why? The agency, for their records, or the bank (as you said initially)? With all due respect, I do sometimes find your messages a little hasty and unclear, and if you communicate like that with your clients, I can easily see that misunderstandings may arise.

As others have pointed out, all the bank needs technically is the IBAN/Swift details.

However, the agency (if not the bank) may want to have some identification from you, as may HM Revenue and Customs from the agency, in order to confirm that they are paying the money to a bona fide business. In the UK, if you are self-employed, the only permanent number that serves that purpose is your NI number (other tax reference numbers change if you move geographically, as a different office takes over your affairs). Therefore, it is not inconceivable that they may ask for this info. Since I assume that you are not a UK citizen and don't have an NI number, ask them if they just need some kind of permanent business/tax reference number, and give it to them.

UK banks are becoming increasingly and ridiculously severe about money laundering and identification in general. A short time ago, I wanted to open a second account with my bank, a bank I have been a customer of for over 20 years. You would not believe the amount of documentation I had to provide - passport, utilities bills, tax returns....


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 09:53
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Tax id Vs National Insurance id Oct 6, 2006

Charlie Bavington wrote:

Brandis wrote:

.....where the outsourcer would like all the above mentioned information. Infact, he is reading this thread just now. Best Brandis


Now, who is actually asking you and why? The agency, for their records, or the bank (as you said initially)? With all due respect, I do sometimes find your messages a little hasty and unclear, and if you communicate like that with your clients, I can easily see that misunderstandings may arise.

As others have pointed out, all the bank needs technically is the IBAN/Swift details.

However, the agency (if not the bank) may want to have some identification from you, as may HM Revenue and Customs from the agency, in order to confirm that they are paying the money to a bona fide business. In the UK, if you are self-employed, the only permanent number that serves that purpose is your NI number (other tax reference numbers change if you move geographically, as a different office takes over your affairs). Therefore, it is not inconceivable that they may ask for this info. Since I assume that you are not a UK citizen and don't have an NI number, ask them if they just need some kind of permanent business/tax reference number, and give it to them.

UK banks are becoming increasingly and ridiculously severe about money laundering and identification in general. A short time ago, I wanted to open a second account with my bank, a bank I have been a customer of for over 20 years. You would not believe the amount of documentation I had to provide - passport, utilities bills, tax returns....
Hi" there, supplying a tax id is not a problem, but not a social security id an equivalent of National insurance id. This is too personal. Sometime back there was a similar discussion, and many community members seriously adv. against it due to a multitude of reasons. Now when I owe an explanation to my tax authorities in Germany I have to supply them, but this is of no importance to an outsourcer in a foreign country, EU??!, here you have border tax regulation authorities as in any european country. Now why do you think does this agency requires my NI or social security id. Tax id is fairly ok, that is also generally an acceptable professional behaviour. Money laundering in our profession? The taxation process requires all proofs of expenditure and income to set a ceiling of taxable income. That is the same anywhere. Best Brandis

[Edited at 2006-10-07 03:02]


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xxxmediamatrix
Local time: 04:53
Spanish to English
+ ...
Why not? Oct 6, 2006

Brandis asked:
Money laundering in our profession?


Any - repeat, ANY - international transfer of funds, regardless of the declared profession of those who are sending and receiving the funds, is a potential money laundering operation when seen from the authorities' viewpoint, and a target for scrutiny. And banks in the EU have a legal obligation to draw suspicious transactions to the attention of the relevant authorities.

In view of the number of translators, right here on Proz.com, who have been approached by scammers from a certain African country, it is clear that the scope for money laundering through the apparently inocuous profession of translation is somewhat greater than zero.

MediaMatrix


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RobinB  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:53
German to English
Money laundering Oct 6, 2006

Brandis wrote: Money laundering in our profession?


Yes, it happens. But that's not the point. As Charlie emphasized, it's relevant to know whether the agency wants this information for its own records (in which case tell them that freelance translators in Germany don't *have* a social security number), or whether the bank wants it. We recently had a case where a UK bank needed our German bank branch's street address before they would transfer funds from a client. Sheer ignorance, but it's not worth the hassle of arguing.


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 09:53
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
everyone has a social security id Oct 6, 2006

RobinB wrote:

Brandis wrote: Money laundering in our profession?


Yes, it happens. But that's not the point. As Charlie emphasized, it's relevant to know whether the agency wants this information for its own records (in which case tell them that freelance translators in Germany don't *have* a social security number), or whether the bank wants it. We recently had a case where a UK bank needed our German bank branch's street address before they would transfer funds from a client. Sheer ignorance, but it's not worth the hassle of arguing.
Hi! I do not mean visitors or tourists in germany, but generally everyone has. This is a personal id that connects (plays a big role with the authorities, whether tax, profession, criminal records or provident fund contributions or allocation etc., etc., various issues) Whether it is a freelancer or a company owner or even a department head in a govt office has a social security id. It seems there is a similarity with your case, the outsourcer argues he needs the social security id, by which he would access all records if he possesses a criminal mind. I cannot understand that a bank needs street name, house number, flat number etc., for this they have IBAN , BIC numbers along with the account information of your bank, where your bank possesses this information already. But due to some kind of legality of the transfer that the owner of the account is also a true owner a UK bank might need it, I had these situations as well, but never social security id. or the tax returns documents etc., After all one is not under regular employment with the agency, it is just a project and may be a few projects, and I am not under the payroll of the agency (while the agency still pays me, while not being able to provide perpetual project work). Normally in germany as you also might know, one has to submit the social security id, on undergoing an employee role bound by a contract and the law. For a freelancer the situation is very different. I happen to have a social security id. Best Brandis


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Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:53
French to English
The misunderstanding (perhaps)? Oct 6, 2006

I fear I may not have been clear enough

Brandis wrote:

supplying a tax id is not a problem, but not a social security id an equivalent of National insurance id.


In the UK, your National Insurance number is your tax i/d


Now why do you think does this agency requires my NI or social security id. Tax id is fairly ok, that is also generally an acceptable professional behavious.


I'll say it again In the UK, your NI number IS YOUR TAX ID

Try to see past the name of the identifier. Yes, it's called a "national insurance number" and I'm sure that, as the reasonably well informed translator you appear to be, you know that "national insurance" is what we call our social security contributions. But the same number is used by the tax authorities.

This is why it is (as so often with requests for information made from one country to another country, but using domestic, rather than generic, terminology) important to see beyond what they have asked for by NAME, to what they have asked for by FUNCTION. If we assume that the agency is NOT simply asking for information for the sake of it (as in Robin's example of the bank address), then it is quite in order to ask for a National Insurance number (read: tax ID) to record the fact that payments are being made to a bona fide business.

If you have no problem, as you say, with supplying a tax ID, then when a UK client asks you for a "national insurance number", give them your tax ID


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