| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Client refuses to pay full sum Thread poster: Inga Jakobi
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| Interesting topic | Oct 26, 2006 |
Hmmm, this is definitely an interesting topic, and the more I think about it the more I understand both points of view!
Derek, think about how wary one becomes when one takes a car to a garage only to pay far more than expected. I for one only go to garages that have been recommended by several friends, to be on the safe side!
I suppose the lesson to be learned Inga is that if you are ever in a similar situation again, you probably should pause at some time in your translation... See more Hmmm, this is definitely an interesting topic, and the more I think about it the more I understand both points of view!
Derek, think about how wary one becomes when one takes a car to a garage only to pay far more than expected. I for one only go to garages that have been recommended by several friends, to be on the safe side!
I suppose the lesson to be learned Inga is that if you are ever in a similar situation again, you probably should pause at some time in your translation to see how close you are to your estimate and be able to warn the company if you think you will be going over. The bigger the discrepency, the more need there is to warn them, even if it is just a question of curtesy. I would still expect them to pay! I personally wouldn't have ever thought of this before, as I never charge per target word, but I shall consider myself duly warned
Giving them a 10% discount does seem to have been a good solution as you can't change what is in the past. Have you heard back from them? Can you ring them to get feedback if necessary, or is your only contact via e-mail? I'd be interested to hear what happens! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | No estimate of the final price given (AFAIK) | Oct 26, 2006 |
Kathryn Strachecky wrote: I suppose the lesson to be learned Inga is that if you are ever in a similar situation again, you probably should pause at some time in your translation to see how close you are to your estimate and be able to warn the company if you think you will be going over. The bigger the discrepency, the more need there is to warn them, even if it is just a question of curtesy. I would still expect them to pay! I personally wouldn't have ever thought of this before, as I never charge per target word, but I shall consider myself duly warned
Hi Kathryn,
As far as I understand it, Inga did not give an estimate of the total price. She just told them her rate per line of the target text.
I also avoid charging per target text whenever possible. But if you get a source text in a format that you cannot OCR in order to get a word count of the source, you have two options: 1) count all the characters by hand, or 2) charge per target text. I guess I would have done exactly the same, i.e. inform them that I will be charging a rate of XX per target line, do the work and send them the invoice when everything is done.
Best regards,
Stefanie
| | | | Marc P (X) 
Local time: 00:10
German to English
+ ...
| Client refuses to pay full sum | Oct 26, 2006 |
Stefanie Sendelbach wrote:
But if you get a source text in a format that you cannot OCR in order to get a word count of the source, you have two options: 1) count all the characters by hand, or 2) charge per target text.
It is quite common in Germany to quote a target-text line rate, even if the source text is available in electronic form.
If only a hardcopy is available, however, and the customer expects a price for the whole job and not simply a line rate, I would consider it normal practice to produce an estimate. The whole text does not have to be counted manually for this purpose. Counts can be made of representative lines (number of characters or words) and pages (number of lines) and these extrapolated to the total number of pages. If the price is to be based upon a target-text rate, an expansion/reduction factor is then applied. Judging from this discussion: www.proz.com/topic/58362, expansion/reduction factors are a familiar concept to translators working with Chinese.
Quantification of texts in this way for the production of estimates was quite common before the availability of source texts in electronic form became the norm. It is usually sufficiently accurate for the purpose of an estimate (as opposed to a quote), which need not be precise (how precise may vary according to the jurisdiction). The translator can always add a safety margin to the estimate to allow for uncertainty.
In some cases, manual quantification may be too time-consuming to be worthwhile or reasonable. This is more likely to be the case when the text contains wide variations in layout (different font and margin sizes, columns, tables, etc.). On the whole, though, I would expect it to be possible. In fact, I would say that unless the translator is intimately familiar with the subject-matter, the volume of a text can be estimated more quickly than its degree of difficulty, yet I doubt many translators would think of leaving the end price open until they had discovered how time-consuming the work was.
Marc
[Edited at 2006-10-27 07:15]
| | | | Inga Jakobi
Germany
Local time: 00:10
Member (2006)
Chinese to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | The client didn't ask for an estimation of the final amount | Oct 26, 2006 |
It seems that some of the collegues got me wrong. There was never a word about an estimatioon of the final sum. The client asked for a price per target line, he even told me about another quote he had and asked if my rate was lower. He never mentioned that he was not able to estimate the full amount, nor that I should in any way inform him about anything. He accepted my offer and assigned the job. For me it was quite clear that he handled a Chinese project beforehand as he never said he was not ... See more It seems that some of the collegues got me wrong. There was never a word about an estimatioon of the final sum. The client asked for a price per target line, he even told me about another quote he had and asked if my rate was lower. He never mentioned that he was not able to estimate the full amount, nor that I should in any way inform him about anything. He accepted my offer and assigned the job. For me it was quite clear that he handled a Chinese project beforehand as he never said he was not sure about it. ▲ Collapse
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| collaboration, flexibility | Oct 26, 2006 |
I always try to approach all my interactions with agencies as mutual collaborations - like see it as if we are in the same boat and need to share any problems that occur, solve them together. Problems occur due to misunderstandings, lack of experience, haste, bad working methods, etc. etc. When that happens, my own inclination is to propose a way to contribute to solve the problem that is reasonable for all parties involved: myself, the agency, and their client. I think doing this also helps bui... See more I always try to approach all my interactions with agencies as mutual collaborations - like see it as if we are in the same boat and need to share any problems that occur, solve them together. Problems occur due to misunderstandings, lack of experience, haste, bad working methods, etc. etc. When that happens, my own inclination is to propose a way to contribute to solve the problem that is reasonable for all parties involved: myself, the agency, and their client. I think doing this also helps build for a good working collaboration in the future.
A few months ago, I had a miscommunication with a client, for a translation of a PDF document. The rate was to be based on the target count. In our communication, I expressly wrote that my rate would be 0.10 cents per word, but for some reason they thought it was 0.09. So they got confused when they eventually received my invoice, and I therefore accepted the lower rate since it wasn't a big difference and in order to be collaborative. Since then we've had a good working relationship, with several new orders coming my way from that client and at my regular rate.
Thomas
[Edited at 2006-10-26 22:18] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Oops my mistake | Oct 27, 2006 |
Sorry, Inga, I misunderstood.
In that case, you obviously couldn't have done anything differently. What a strange situation! I do hope that you get paid, and soon.
And Loek, thanks for your nice message, I was starting to feel quite scared of you only joking...
Have a nice day everyone.
| | | | Inga Jakobi
Germany
Local time: 00:10
Member (2006)
Chinese to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Client doesn't accept discount | Oct 27, 2006 |
Hi everybody, back again...
Kathryn Strachecky wrote:
I do hope that you get paid, and soon.
I hope so to, but I still doubt it. I sent my invoice with 10% off but the client says, the amount was still to high
| | | | Inga Jakobi
Germany
Local time: 00:10
Member (2006)
Chinese to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | There was no problem for me | Oct 27, 2006 |
Thomas Johansson wrote:
I always try to approach all my interactions with agencies as mutual collaborations - like see it as if we are in the same boat and need to share any problems that occur, solve them together.
Hi Thomas, thanks for your comment! I learned my lesson, and something like this will definitely never happen again, but still for me there was no problem to share with the agency. I worked in a translation agency myself as project manager and invoices of the amount I am talking about here were just common there.
But at the moment I have no other choice than wait and hope that I won't need a lawyer to get paid...
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Hynek Palatin
Czech Republic
Local time: 00:10
Member (2003)
English to Czech
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| Stand your ground | Oct 27, 2006 |
I sent my invoice with 10% off but the client says, the amount was still to high
He can say that, but he has to pay.
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 00:10
German to English
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| Client refuses to pay full sum | Oct 27, 2006 |
Pirily wrote:
I hope so to, but I still doubt it. I sent my invoice with 10% off but the client says, the amount was still to high
In what other sector can a customer order a product or service according to agreed terms, and after delivery simply refuse to pay because the price is "too high"? This sounds to me like fraud, pure and simple. Offering discounts to such people is no way to do business.
Marc
| | | | cocotier
Local time: 00:10
English to French
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I am really sorry for you. It is easy for us to say this and that. It is not obvious when this kind of problem happens to you. We all understand that it is hard to give up when so many efforts have been involved.
Your client said the amount is still too high: did he suggest any amount? Apparently not.
1) He doesn't want to pay at all => get a lawer => is it worth?
2) He proposes an amount => probably very low: try to negociate
3) If it is an agency (so an intermed... See more I am really sorry for you. It is easy for us to say this and that. It is not obvious when this kind of problem happens to you. We all understand that it is hard to give up when so many efforts have been involved.
Your client said the amount is still too high: did he suggest any amount? Apparently not.
1) He doesn't want to pay at all => get a lawer => is it worth?
2) He proposes an amount => probably very low: try to negociate
3) If it is an agency (so an intermediate) , why don't you try to get more information and understand deeply the problem as suggested by Thomas? Maybe the final client has problem or doesn't want to pay: you could try to help them solve a problem...and get finally paid.
My small contribution.
I sincerely hope it will be OK.
Thanks for sharing your problems! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Inga Jakobi
Germany
Local time: 00:10
Member (2006)
Chinese to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | The discount was just kind | Oct 27, 2006 |
[quote]MarcPrior wrote:
Pirily wrote:
Offering discounts to such people is no way to do business.
Marc
Exactly! Unfortunately there was no way back, but I'm not willing to give any more discount.
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| Don't press too soon | Oct 27, 2006 |
Unless you already do, I think you should try to find out what exactly is going on on the agency's side, what their problem is. This will make it easier for you to choose a suitable strategy to adopt. Maybe give them a call, as they seem unable to explain the situation by email.
Maybe they want to pay, but have messed things up on their side and don't know how to explain the situation. Maybe the project manager is new and has messed things up and does not know how to handle the situ... See more Unless you already do, I think you should try to find out what exactly is going on on the agency's side, what their problem is. This will make it easier for you to choose a suitable strategy to adopt. Maybe give them a call, as they seem unable to explain the situation by email.
Maybe they want to pay, but have messed things up on their side and don't know how to explain the situation. Maybe the project manager is new and has messed things up and does not know how to handle the situation. Maybe they suspect you are the one trying to cheat them - maybe they are in the process of checking your translation to see if you have been fair. Whatever. If they are even the least professional - which they should be given that they sound like a big, already well established agency - they know that what has been said and agreed has been said and agreed and one must stick to it and pay as agreed. They will probably aim to do that as long as there is a minimum level of goodwill between you.
Use force, pressure, and the like only as a last measure if a situation is reached where all communication fails, all mutual goodwill is gone, etc. If the agency or the person managing your project in it is sitting with real problems and you go in and say "This is what we have agreed. You have to pay. No later than then or then. Otherwise I will do so and so. etc.", you may just risk putting the other party against the wall and make things worse and they may get fed up with you and simply decide you're out and no payment whatsoever.
So, in short, I suggest call them, be friendly, try to get a real understanding of exactly what is going on and what their problem is. As for the invoice, if they only say it is too much, ask them to explain why they think so and propose a concrete amount they think more adequate. Don't agree to anything on the phone though, but say you need to think first.
If the dialogue deteriorates and becomes bad, make sure you make them aware of your "trumph", which is that you can report on them publicly using e.g. the blue board available on proz.com and similar resources on other sites. They don't want to have a bad public reputation, as they will lose both customers and translators that way. As for me, I always check the client against such resources before accepting a job from a new client.
[Edited at 2006-10-27 17:26] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Inga Jakobi
Germany
Local time: 00:10
Member (2006)
Chinese to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thanks Thomas! | Oct 27, 2006 |
Hi Thomas,
thank you very much for your posting! To be honest. I am already getting a bit angry because I know (or at least I think to know) that their problem is to have agreed on a certain amount with their client and to have a contract with me which doesn't fit their quote to their client any more. They are shocked about the amount and try to blaim me for it because I didn't inform them, instead of just confessing that they mis-calculated. But of course I will stay friendly but I don't ... See more Hi Thomas,
thank you very much for your posting! To be honest. I am already getting a bit angry because I know (or at least I think to know) that their problem is to have agreed on a certain amount with their client and to have a contract with me which doesn't fit their quote to their client any more. They are shocked about the amount and try to blaim me for it because I didn't inform them, instead of just confessing that they mis-calculated. But of course I will stay friendly but I don't have money to give away only because they made a mistake. I don't think that they will end up not paying because we can still discuss this in front of the court and I have the law on my side (this was the first thing I checked).
They told me they would come back to me with a suggestion on Monday and if they don't, I may call them, of course being polite. But would you really like to loose money because of a client you have never worked with before (but checked the blue board without finding any bad comments) and who will probably never assign any job to you again. And don't forget: I already gave them 10 % off and Iam not interested in any argument, I am a quite quiet person, positive and friendly and showing goodwill, but they just don't accept it. I am sort of desperated because I would like to be kind and everything but they have to pay. That's a fact and I try to explain it to them in all kindness. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Good for you Inga | Oct 28, 2006 |
I completely agree. I think that you have already tried to meet them half-way when you offered them the 10% discount. As you said, the mistake is theirs, and there's no reason why you should be the one to pay for it. Of course, I haven't seen your translation, but you don't come across as the kind of person who would deliberatley "pad" your translation to earn more money.
Let's just hope that they come back to you on Monday with a reasonable offer and that you will be able to settle... See more I completely agree. I think that you have already tried to meet them half-way when you offered them the 10% discount. As you said, the mistake is theirs, and there's no reason why you should be the one to pay for it. Of course, I haven't seen your translation, but you don't come across as the kind of person who would deliberatley "pad" your translation to earn more money.
Let's just hope that they come back to you on Monday with a reasonable offer and that you will be able to settle this on friendly terms. ▲ Collapse
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