| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Is .04 the new standard rate in the US? Thread poster: Jeff Whittaker
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Ralf Lemster 
Germany
Local time: 04:53
English to German
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Hi Marcelo,
The other issue here is that, unlike in countries like Finland or Germany (and I believe that Ralf is missing this cultural issue), Americans don't care squat about everybody else in their business.
I don't think I'm missing anything, as I see the same behaviour over here. What keeps surprising me is that the people who are prepared to work at rock-bottom rates live in places like Frankfurt and London.
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | PRen (X)
Local time: 22:53
French to English
+ ...
| Sorry, but I've got to disagree | Sep 12, 2007 |
Juliana Starkman wrote: PRen wrote: TampaTranslator wrote:
You are probably right. But these agencies all had 25 - 48 positive BB ratings from other translators. I guess I was incorrect when I failed to consider that so many would be happy to work for so little and that while the BB may reflect good payment practices, it says nothing about the quality of rates that are offered.
or about the quality of translations they have translators willing to work for next to nothing churn out for them. and comment on the supposed low quality of translations done by people who will work for less. I know in my case (and the case of many others), when I started freelancing seriously, it was terrifying trying to find agencies, clients, etc. at all, never mind being picky about prices. Of course I find it disgusting that agencies pay so little considering what the end-client pays, and now, at this stage in my work, I have the 20 cent end clients, and even some decent agencies. However, I still find it hard to blame a student, or someone just going back to work after a long while for taking what they can, while they set themselves up. It is not a quality issue. Sometimes it is a pay the mortgage issue.
Try the same analogy in another profession - how chuffed do you think dentists would be if a new graduate, or a student looking for part-time work, or someone going back to work after a long time, offered to do fillings for a buck?
Having to pay a mortgage is not justification for offering ridiculous rates, just as it is not justification for ripping off your friends, robbing a bank, or snatching a little old lady's purse. If I have trouble paying my mortgage, I won't be reducing my rates to 2 cents a word and expect other translators to "understand" - I'll find another line of work.
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 04:53
German to English
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| Agree with PRen | Sep 12, 2007 |
I have to agree with Pau... (are you completely incognito here? )
A 10%, 15% or perhaps even 25% discount might be reasonable for a business attempting to (re-)establish itself. But prices cited in discussions such as this are not infrequently 50% to 90% lower than those charged by established professionals. That is a sign that something is seriously wrong.
The "different ends of the market" referred to b... See more I have to agree with Pau... (are you completely incognito here? )
A 10%, 15% or perhaps even 25% discount might be reasonable for a business attempting to (re-)establish itself. But prices cited in discussions such as this are not infrequently 50% to 90% lower than those charged by established professionals. That is a sign that something is seriously wrong.
The "different ends of the market" referred to by Ralf are only part of the story. Earlier this week, I was discussing prices with a colleague who said that in his opinion, many agencies regarded technical manuals as "beginner material". That would explain a few things.
The downward trend in prices in *some* - but by no means all - sub-markets is invariably blamed either on geographical factors, or on buyers who for some reason are willing to pay lower prices to suppliers willing to accept them (how strange!). In my view, neither of these factors is the main reason. It is the emergence of a "beginners' market" that is the biggest single cause.
This site's role is worth considering in this context. When someone asks, as they do depressingly often, how they can "get started", my reaction is that they should leave it to the professionals, or become one themselves. But here, the stock response is "Join ProZ, spruce up your profile, buy Trados...". The advice is well-meaning but counter-productive to professional standards. What is one to make of a profession that can seriously contemplate producing a "guide to getting started" (www.proz.com/topic/83033)?
I am all in favour of translators helping each other with advice, but if someone has to ask "how to get started" and expects to find a 10-point FAQ, they aren't qualified to start. If the profession wishes to be taken seriously, it needs to begin addressing this issue. Mutual help should not be an excuse to sacrifice professional standards.
Marc ▲ Collapse
| | | | PRen (X)
Local time: 22:53
French to English
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| You're absolutely right. | Sep 12, 2007 |
Marc P wrote: I have to agree with Pau... (are you completely incognito here? ) The downward trend in prices in *some* - but by no means all - sub-markets is invariably blamed either on geographical factors, or on buyers who for some reason are willing to pay lower prices to suppliers willing to accept them (how strange!). In my view, neither of these factors is the main reason. It is the emergence of a "beginners' market" that is the biggest single cause. This site's role is worth considering in this context. When someone asks, as they do depressingly often, how they can "get started", my reaction is that they should leave it to the professionals, or become one themselves. But here, the stock response is "Join ProZ, spruce up your profile, buy Trados...". The advice is well-meaning but counter-productive to professional standards. What is one to make of a profession that can seriously contemplate producing a "guide to getting started" ( www.proz.com/topic/83033)? I am all in favour of translators helping each other with advice, but if someone has to ask "how to get started" and expects to find a 10-point FAQ, they aren't qualified to start. If the profession wishes to be taken seriously, it needs to begin addressing this issue. Mutual help should not be an excuse to sacrifice professional standards. Marc
Nope, it's me, cranky as usual!)
Thanks for stating so eloquently what I've been railing against for some time. And in terms of "helping" beginners, last week there were several members of this site responding to someone asking how to "get clients", advising the guy to get cracking on kudoz, and get his points up, cos' apparently, that's how you get clients nowadays. People, this is not helping. It's ridiculous.
Paula
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RobinB
United States
Local time: 21:53
German to English
| Keep the government out of it | Sep 12, 2007 |
MV LegalTrans wrote: The more I think about this the more I am convinced that this should become a regulated profession with set rates, etc.
Let's keep the government out of translation, OK?
1) If you want translation to be a regulated profession, this means that all translators working today won't qualify until they they've completed a course of professional education similar to that for lawyers, accountants, or physicians. There are no such qualification schemes in place today, nor are any planned. A mere "translation degree" doesn't count. Sure, you could have a grandfathering rule, but for a maximum of, say, 3 years.
2) Why should the government (any government) want to set rates for general commercial translations? Where's the public policy argument? It might be in the interest of some translators who are too frightened to expect a fair rate for their work, but it would hardly be in the interest of the rest of the economy (or other translators).
3) And if the government did set rates, what would your reponse be if it said OK, the rate is 4 cents per word? Would you then call for set rates to be scrapped? Who's going to set the rates? (you can be sure it won't be translators!)
4) On the upside, if the profession is regulated, that means that very few translators working today will actually be eligible to work under the new system. But we're overworked as it is, so where's the benefit? Translation isn't a scaleable activity. Again on the upside, though, there would have to be a system to punish translators who make mistakes. Three strikes and you're out? That would concentrate minds a lot, I'm sure.
It's depressing how the topic of the "closed shop" comes up with monotonous regularity. What a waste of time...
Robin
| | | | Chantal Kamgne
Canada
Local time: 22:53
Member (2006)
English to French
SITE LOCALIZER | Re: Is .04 the new standard rate in the US? | Sep 12, 2007 |
Ralf Lemster wrote:
Hi Marcelo,
I don't think I'm missing anything, as I see the same behaviour over here. What keeps surprising me is that the people who are prepared to work at rock-bottom rates live in places like Frankfurt and London.
Best regards,
Ralf
I agree.
A PM from an agency that is well known here and at other places once told me that my rates were too high. I offered a discount but when he quoted the usual rate at which their translators, even those living in Europe, work. I could not believe him and I said so. After all, this was a big agency. So he later forwarded to me the acceptance mail from the person who accepted the job (a highly specialized technical text).
Since then, I have had contacts with many agencies, and I can say for sure that the factors contributing to lower rates are not only geographical
This is just my point of view, which I know is far from what is generally being admitted.
Regards,
Chantal
[Edited at 2007-09-13 08:55]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 04:53
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Be nice, and be realistic | Sep 12, 2007 |
TampaTranslator wrote:
Should I respond and let them know how insulting their offers are or should I just delete the letters?
You're not likely to win any new clients by telling them their offers are insulting. Instead, you should tell these clients calmly and professionally that their rates are below the threshold of what you are prepared to accept, and let them what your rates are. Then it is entirely up to them to pay your your rate.
I also can't help but laugh when they claim on their websites that they only employ the most competent and professional translators - not at .04!
Don't laugh. The fact that you are unable to work fast enough to make a good living from 0.04 per word should tell you something... perhaps you are not among the most competent translators after all.
| | | | | Not so nice, and not so realistic | Sep 12, 2007 |
Samuel Murray wrote: I also can't help but laugh when they claim on their websites that they only employ the most competent and professional translators - not at .04! Don't laugh. The fact that you are unable to work fast enough to make a good living from 0.04 per word should tell you something... perhaps you are not among the most competent translators after all.
At 0.04 USD per word you should be translating about 5,000 words, day in day out, to get a decent living in most western countries. It is an attainable, but hardly realistic, goal. At that rate, day in day out, you can't afford to get any training, to be ill, to have any bad debt, to spend time with your customers... Basically, you'd get a decent living (almost), but no life to live. So...
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Don't laugh. The fact that you are unable to work fast enough to make a good living from 0.04 per word should tell you something... perhaps you are not among the most competent translators after all.
Samuel,
You mean that it is a question of working fast, nothing else. So forget about the possibility of getting together to find a solution. Don’t you think it is important to defend our profession? Sorry to tell you, but if we behave in that way, we are going to earn as much as USD 0.000001 per word. Do you think that that’s fair? Tell me that you are not speaking seriously, at least try to give hope to those like me, for example, that are relatively new in the business. Don’t you think that this situation can be changed?
Best,
Fernando
| | | | Marcelo Silveyra
United States
Local time: 19:53
Member (2007)
German to English
+ ...
| Misunderstanding | Sep 13, 2007 |
Marc P wrote: This site's role is worth considering in this context. When someone asks, as they do depressingly often, how they can "get started", my reaction is that they should leave it to the professionals, or become one themselves. But here, the stock response is "Join ProZ, spruce up your profile, buy Trados...". The advice is well-meaning but counter-productive to professional standards. What is one to make of a profession that can seriously contemplate producing a "guide to getting started" ( www.proz.com/topic/83033)? Marc
Marc, my intention of "producing a 'guide to get started'" was not, as you imply, a 10-point "Join KudoZ, spruce up your profile, buy Trados..." FAQ for people who want to cash in quickly on the translation business. It's a guide for:
a) people who have put in the necessary time and hard work in the translation business but don't have a clue about the actual business side of it (I've known translators with years and years of experience who were still being paid peanuts because they never checked what the standard/acceptable rates were...sad, but true)
b) people who want to become translators. In this case, I'm not talking about "join KudoZ, spruce up your profile, etc." but about "translation is a serious profession, it doesn't take just one year to learn a language and immerse oneself in a culture, you can't translate documents on every subject on the planet, etc." It's not a "cash in quick" guide; it's a "how to get started" guide, which doesn't mean the process will take a couple of weeks. It's not a "how to get started by using ProZ" guide, but rather "a guide that you can find in ProZ and that will tell you what you need to consider in order to start the process of becoming a translator." I didn't think I needed to spell that out, but apparently I did.
It's not like you can't tell people who want to become engineers and lawyers what to do in order to become one, so I don't see what's the big difference regarding our oh-so-holy profession.
If other people suggest that translation is something you simply jump into because you sort of know two languages, I can't take responsibility for that. I'm afraid you automatically joined my suggestion with people's short-term "getting started" comments in that and other threads.
But the fact is, people do jump into the translation business because it seems so easy, and as a result we get both bad translations and sinking rates. Maybe at least a couple of them actually would be interested in becoming professional translators and don't know how to, and at least it would be an informative guide for existing translators, aspiring translators, and clients.
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 04:53
German to English
+ ...
| Is .04 the new standard rate in the US? | Sep 13, 2007 |
I take your point Marcelo. An index of articles, such as those already in the knowledgebase, would be very valuable.
But why, then, reduce it to a FAQ? This is precisely the point: the amount of information required by a translator who is setting up their business for the first time is vast. A FAQ only contains the "frequently asked questions", but what a lot of new start-ups are hoping for is in fact something that will cut through this huge volume of information and pick out the s... See more I take your point Marcelo. An index of articles, such as those already in the knowledgebase, would be very valuable.
But why, then, reduce it to a FAQ? This is precisely the point: the amount of information required by a translator who is setting up their business for the first time is vast. A FAQ only contains the "frequently asked questions", but what a lot of new start-ups are hoping for is in fact something that will cut through this huge volume of information and pick out the salient points for them and enable them to get "up and running" as quickly as possible, which isn't the same thing. This attitude isn't a figment of my information: it's reflected in the common question "How do I get started?" (and the responses invariably given to it), and you can also see it in the responses to your own suggestion. For example: "as a relatively new translator I agree this would be very helpful and as Luder says it would be good to have the info all in 1 click (well, a summary anyway) rather than having to trawl through all of the forums for info for new translators." That's precisely the problem: the issues are often too complex to be reduced to 1 click, or even to a summary; and one crucial skill required by translators is in any case that of finding relevant information amongst the vast pool of resources already available. An index to relevant articles would make the information more accessible, but the idea that a "guide to getting started" can be reduced to a summary is naive, or "dumbing-down".
As for telling people who want to become engineers and lawyers what to do in order to become one, the fact is that to join these professions you have to follow a defined course of training and obtain certain qualifications. There is no such formal requirement in translation, and I am not suggesting that there should be, but that does not mean that everyone is automatically "qualified" in the broader sense to become a translator immediately, much less set up an independent translation business.
Marc ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 22:53
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | .05 is the new rush rate | Sep 13, 2007 |
This morning I received an "offer" through the ProZ directory (not the kind sent to 100 people, but sent directly to me) asking me to translate 1200 words (G>E) by the end of the day at .05 a word. I responded and let them know that my rush rate for same day delivery was .15 a word, payment in advance.
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Atena Hensch
New Zealand
Local time: 14:53
Persian (Farsi) to English
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Students charge less (near to zero) and they just destroy the market with bad quality translation. It makes me angry though.
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 04:53
English to German
+ ...
| Beware of generalisations | Sep 14, 2007 |
Atena,
May I suggest some caution regarding generalisations.
Students charge less (near to zero) and they just destroy the market with bad quality translation.
I have seen translators with 10+ years of experience charge rock-bottom prices; can't tell you about their quality as I refused to accept it.
OTOH I have seen very good work done by students. Not all of them do - but that also applies to 'experienced' translators.
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | Marcelo Silveyra
United States
Local time: 19:53
Member (2007)
German to English
+ ...
Hi Marc,
I agree with pretty much everything you said in your last post, and actually found it very useful. I do want to reduce the information to an FAQ of sorts, but not to a three-line answer FAQ. The thing about the forums, their usefulness notwithstanding, is that they aren't particularly useful as guides all the time, since threads invariably meander, CAT tool reviews are often way too moody (they frequently end up being something along the lines of"I like it" or "I'm sick o... See more Hi Marc,
I agree with pretty much everything you said in your last post, and actually found it very useful. I do want to reduce the information to an FAQ of sorts, but not to a three-line answer FAQ. The thing about the forums, their usefulness notwithstanding, is that they aren't particularly useful as guides all the time, since threads invariably meander, CAT tool reviews are often way too moody (they frequently end up being something along the lines of"I like it" or "I'm sick of it"), etc. So perhaps I shouldn't call it an FAQ, but rather a comprehensive guide. (Yes, I know the difference is pretty big.) Since the thing isn't even underway yet, I can't tell you exactly what would be in it and what wouldn't. But it certainly isn't going to be a "read this one-page guide and you're set" thing. I want it to be a really useful guide for a large amount of topics that avoids one word answers and offers well-written articles instead, just not 1,000 articles on each topic that pretty much repeat the same thing over and over.
Ok. You're right, I should have never said FAQ. Let's call it the "Comprehensive Guide That Will Break Your Will to Live" (or something like that ) ▲ Collapse
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