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low rates offered by agencies on Proz
Thread poster: Cyril Bel-Ange
Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 10:30
English to French
+ ...
Bingo! Nov 24, 2007

Oleg Rudavin wrote:

In a nutshell, the rates are not getting lower - it's the number of translation service buyers looking for cheap manpower increasing.


This is absolutely true. However, keep in mind that with an increase in buyers looking for cheap manpower necessarily comes an increase in the number of people willing to be cheap manpower, especially since people who "can English" are able to get a piece of the pie. This partially explains the incredibly high number of people on this site and elsewhere who "can English, will translate".

Also, while it may be true that a translator in India doesn't need to charge as much as I do to have the same standard of living, they could still charge as much as I do and get the contracts, since I charge that much and get the contracts. Also, even though the average rate on this site for English to French is 0.09 to 0.12, which is, like I said, not representative of the industry as a whole, we increasingly see offers for 0.04 and 0.05 - coming from outsourcers in North America! And if these jobs are advertized at such rates, that means that there are people willing to do them at that rate. It is this willingness to voluntarily undercut market rates (whether it be the ProZ market or the global market) that is largely responsible for this incredibly fast decrease in overall rates, in my opinion.

It is true that this whole globalization thing will eventually iron itself out - rates will become more or less homogenous all over the world in a while - but the question is what rate will the spinning wheel stop at. My wish is that once rates are more stable, they will be reflective of what I charge, or better. Sadly, since North America and Europe are not the ones dictating rates (Asian and South-American countries contribute far more to this decrease in rates, since translation is booming in those regions compared to North America and Europe), it is likely that the more homogenous rate we will end up with will only be slightly higher than rates in these countries who are pushing rates down at the moment, since they represent the mass.

This is why it is extremely important that professionals who charge high-end rates don't give in to the tendency. Leave the peanuts for the monkeys and do your best to justify the rates you charge and want to keep charging.


 
Oleg Rudavin
Oleg Rudavin  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 16:30
Member (2003)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
My observations Nov 24, 2007

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
we increasingly see offers for 0.04 and 0.05 - coming from outsourcers in North America!


For me, it proves one fact only: these outsourcers are getting more and more problems finding translators ready to accept such rates. Why else do we see same agencies searching translators in the same language combinations over and over again?

Being both a freelancer and agency, I notice the following trends:
- Arithmetical average rates go down
- Rates for CATable translations go down even faster
- Outsourcers tend to fall into one of the two categories: those that want highest profits vs. those that want best professionals working for them.
- The latter are growing in number and the rates they offer are getting higher.

I can only repeat Ralf's words: there are quite a number of translation markets, and it's mostly a matter of finding one's place in one of them.

Cheers,
Oleg


 
Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 10:30
English to French
+ ...
I hope you are right Nov 24, 2007

Oleg Rudavin wrote:
- Outsourcers tend to fall into one of the two categories: those that want highest profits vs. those that want best professionals working for them.
- The latter are growing in number and the rates they offer are getting higher.


If this is true, then the outlook is positive for professionals. Hopefully, it is not an illusion!


 
islander1974
islander1974
Canada
French to English
+ ...
Hope you're right too Nov 25, 2007

..and that things will balance out.

 
Ralf Lemster
Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 15:30
English to German
+ ...
No contradiction Nov 25, 2007

Hi Oleg,
- Outsourcers tend to fall into one of the two categories: those that want highest profits vs. those that want best professionals working for them.

There's not necessarily a contradiction: I find that I can, in fact, boost profitability by contracting highly professional freelancers charging decent prices.

Best regards,
Ralf


 
Valery Kaminski
Valery Kaminski  Identity Verified
Belarus
Local time: 17:30
English to Russian
+ ...
Types of outsourcers Nov 25, 2007

They come in all kinds.

A very recent example (yesterday).
...large project... ...the client is low on budget... ...can only pay $0.04 cents per word at most... ...translation has to be perfect...
... [has to be] ready to be sent to the client because there will be no proofreading by another person.

Some smart alecs (these ones were asking what Trados is just last year) are ready to cut as many corners as they can get away with.


 
Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 10:30
English to French
+ ...
That's right Nov 25, 2007

Ralf Lemster wrote:

There's not necessarily a contradiction


I'd rather say there necessarily is no contradiction. You are right in saying that hiring quality translators who charge standard rates or above vs. translators willing to work for peanuts can yield a better profit margin. But I am sure your primary motivation is not the profit margin - you are after all working for a client.

So, the main point here is motivation. I think Oleg meant to say that outsourcers whose main interest in their business is making lots of money will tend to pay rock-bottom prices, whereas those who want to treat their clients right above anything else will obviously look for serious professionals and by extension will be willing to pay their worth.

Of course, anybody who is in business is ultimately in for the money - let's be fair. But to some, the end justifies the means, and to others, the means justify the end.

[Edited at 2007-11-25 21:41]


 
LoyalTrans
LoyalTrans
Local time: 22:30
English to Chinese
+ ...
let the clients find you Nov 26, 2007

Ralf Lemster wrote:

Hi again,

What you need to recognise is that there isn't a single translation market, but numerous horizontal segments characterised by different needs - and different prices. Judging from my own experience, chasing low-paid jobs doesn't make much sense (although I have seen business scenarios where a low rate could be transformed into a decent stream of daily income) - the more interesting assignments are where the customer finds you. (Hence my reference to profiles etc.)


Best regards,
Ralf



Cannot help chiming in that this "being pursued" strategy definitely makes sense, especially for those who are not entirely relying on a steady income (from sweatshop price) to make a living... I personally think the "high-end" market segmentation is where a serious translator should work eventually.

[Edited at 2007-11-26 09:58]


 
Oleg Rudavin
Oleg Rudavin  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 16:30
Member (2003)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
Sure there's no contradiction at all Nov 26, 2007

That was mine: Outsourcers tend to fall into one of the two categories: those that want highest profits vs. those that want best professionals working for them.


Ralf Lemster:
There's not necessarily a contradiction: I find that I can, in fact, boost profitability by contracting highly professional freelancers charging decent prices.


Viktoria Gimbe:
anybody who is in business is ultimately in for the money


To Ralf - I'll then say those that want highest profits - which can easily be done by reducing the rate paid to translators: I know that a proportion of real professionals have been frightened by the visible part of the translation market iceberg (I mean the downward pressure on rates which appears as an obvious trend) and the fear drives some of them into accepting lower rates. If an outsourcer's philosophy is max profits, higher rates to translators would be in contradiction with it.

At the same time, there is another market where quality matters more than the budget. That's exactly your situation Ralf: in this market, business is profitable, too, and not necessarily less profitable than in in the above situation (end clients who care for quality would be prepared to pay for it, and the resulting margin may be comparable in both situations).

It took me over 6 years of freelancing to get a more or less systematic picture of the translation business. Can't say it's complete, But I did notice some trends which are deep below the surface.

Cheers,
Oleg

[Edited at 2007-11-26 08:16]


 
Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 10:30
English to French
+ ...
Amen Nov 26, 2007

Oleg Rudavin wrote:
To Ralf - I'll then say those that want highest profits - which can easily be done by reducing the rate paid to translators: I know that a proportion of real professionals have been frightened by the visible part of the translation market iceberg (I mean the downward pressure on rates which appears as an obvious trend) and the fear drives some of them into accepting lower rates. If an outsourcer's philosophy is max profits, higher rates to translators would be in contradiction with it.

At the same time, there is another market where quality matters more than the budget. That's exactly your situation Ralf: in this market, business is profitable, too, and not necessarily less profitable than in in the above situation (end clients who care for quality would be prepared to pay for it, and the resulting margin may be comparable in both situations).


I couldn't have said it better. For one thing, many translators are too horrified of this trend to think straight, and you are right that fear drives them into accepting low rates.

Also, my feeling is that the majority - agencies favoring profits above anything else - doesn't have a clue what business is all about. Ralf has a very complete clue and that is why he is on the higher end of the market. But sadly, the number of outsourcers who have a complete common business sense like him is sensibly outweighed by those who are only motivated by profit and couldn't care less about treating their clients or their service providers right. Well, when one has no clue of business because one is blinded by profit, one is left wondering why business is bad. Those are not the ones I want to be working with.

I can only add once more what I often say: don't give in to bad influence. Don't feel pressured to lower your rate or quote a low rate to begin with. It is your business and you decide of your terms and conditions. Those agencies who don't accept sound conditions should be out of business - and you don't need to work for people like that. Serious professionals have the upper hand - they just don't always realize it.


 
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