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Off topic: 1 Google search = 1 hour burning a light bulb
Thread poster: Heinrich Pesch

Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 13:27
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
Jul 18, 2008

I opened today's newpaper (Helsingin Sanomat) and couldn't believe it. I really had never thought of this.
Sorry this month the English edition is off-line, so I have to explain in my own words.

The Info-technology will rival air traffic by 2020 when pollution is concerned. The Finnish server centers, where all Internet traffic takes place in our country, consume currently yearly 150 000 MWh of energy, half of it by cooling alone.
According to the New York Times, one search in Google consumes as much energy as burning a energy-saving lightbulb for one hour.

In order to save energy, the main players are searching for locations, where cooling can be achieved cheaply. Microsoft is planning to build server centers in Northern Siberia near big rivers. Previously the trend was for cheap labor countries like India, but now energy costs are favoring cool locations. (At the same time the North is strongly effected by global warming, so I doubt if going North is a solution to the problem).

Happy computing to all of you

Heinrich


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Henry Hinds  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:27
English to Spanish
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Yeah, but... Jul 18, 2008

If you lived here where I do, you would not have to waste gas frying your eggs this time of year.

You can fry them on the sidewalk.


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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:27
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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London carriages Jul 18, 2008

Yes, but in the early 20th century, London newspapers published articles and statistics warning that by 1920 downtown London would be permanently covered with several inches of manure produced by the increase of chariot and delivery carriage traffic. Soon cars started to be common.

Mankind is great at finding solutions. And honestly I don't care much if my Google searches mean power consumption, the same way an assembler does not usually care about how much energy was invested in producing the steel in his tools and the tools themselves...

[Edited at 2008-07-18 05:05]


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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:27
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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Warmer weather in Finland Jul 18, 2008

Heinrich Pesch wrote:
At the same time the North is strongly effected by global warming, so I doubt if going North is a solution to the problem).


Heinrich, I can only tell you that my Finnish customers would be all so happy if Google or Microsoft placed their "radiators" around Jyväskylä, Tampere or Helsinki and that meant an increase of a couple of degrees in air temperatures!

Is your concern related to the fact that they are considering Siberia and not Finland?


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Claudia Alvis  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 05:27
Spanish
+ ...
At 2:14 am, the Internets became self-aware Jul 18, 2008

With all the hype about energy-conservation and the current trend that's making the Internet almost omnipresent, it now seems that "the Internets" are out there to get us. It reminds me of the war between Skynet against humans. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm actually worried about the whole energy thing but I don't see Internet going anywhere, literally.

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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:27
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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No matter what we do, humans are always harmful Jul 18, 2008

Even if we recycle everything down to our toothbush and our sight glasses, drive at low speeds and make a rational use of our brakes to save fuel, limit the amount of water we use, turn off all lights we don't need, fill up the dishwasher and washing machine to the maximum, buy ecological products... NO MATTER WHAT WE DO, NEWSPAPERS WILL ALWAYS FIND SOMETHING TO WORRY US AND MAKE US FEEL GUILTY!

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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 13:27
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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TOPIC STARTER
Only a legend Jul 18, 2008

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:

Heinrich Pesch wrote:
At the same time the North is strongly effected by global warming, so I doubt if going North is a solution to the problem).


Heinrich, I can only tell you that my Finnish customers would be all so happy if Google or Microsoft placed their "radiators" around Jyväskylä, Tampere or Helsinki and that meant an increase of a couple of degrees in air temperatures!

Is your concern related to the fact that they are considering Siberia and not Finland?


Finland as a cold country is only a legend. People at Microsoft etc. know that.

On the contrary, we are very concerned about mild winters.

Seriously, I would advocate a toll on Internet traffic in order to get rid of span at least. 80 percent of traffic is just spam.


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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:27
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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Careful please! Jul 18, 2008

Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Seriously, I would advocate a toll on Internet traffic in order to get rid of span at least. 80 percent of traffic is just spam.


Heinrich, please be careful. Let's correct the figure. 80% of EMAIL traffic, which itself accounts for a small part of all Internet traffic. The lion's share of traffic is generated by web and multimedia services. Think about Youtube, Flickr and all the content-rich sites generating tons of live, bulky loads.

So let's be careful about supporting Internet tolls! Politicians would love it and, again, innocent will pay the deeds of the guilty.


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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:27
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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Mild winters Jul 18, 2008

Heinrich Pesch wrote:
On the contrary, we are very concerned about mild winters.


Yes, I am quite aware of that. Finns need snow to be happy, and in big quantities. As a Spaniard I find it hard to interiorise it, but it is a fact and I have known that for many years now.

To balance things a bit, in my opinion there are business and environmental aspects of milder winters that would be very positive for Finland: a longer growing season for one of Finland's biggest industries (forestry), less need of energy to heat homes and working places, easier maritime and land traffic, probably more tourism...

[Edited at 2008-07-18 06:05]


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 13:27
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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TOPIC STARTER
What about cyber attacks? Jul 18, 2008



Heinrich, please be careful. Let's correct the figure. 80% of EMAIL traffic, which itself accounts for a small part of all Internet traffic. The lion's share of traffic is generated by web and multimedia services. Think about Youtube, Flickr and all the content-rich sites generating tons of live, bulky loads.

So let's be careful about supporting Internet tolls! Politicians would love it and, again, innocent will pay the deeds of the guilty.


Wouldn't a toll on internet traffic also cut out much harmful behaviour beyond email spam? If every contact would cost money, wouldn't that deminish the threat of all kind of cyber attacks?
A ban on flat rates, why not? We also pay for each phone call and SMS-message.

Regards
Heinrich


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PAS  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:27
English to Polish
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Flashy statistics to make you go "wow" Jul 18, 2008

Hard science fiction books are known to discuss problems of advanced civilizations' problems with their waste heat.

It seems to me, the "easiest" solution would be to ship the servers out to orbit - can't get much colder than there...

One google search - fine, but what about just sitting in front of the computer and playing Freecell? Your LCD monitor burns 35 W/h - that's about 3 energy-saving lightbulbs, no? Not to mention the computer itself.

We also pay for each
S-message[/quote]
Actually, I send most of my text messages for free through the internet.

Pawel Skalinski

[Edited at 2008-07-18 09:40]


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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:27
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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Toll on kitchen knives to stop killings with kitchen knives? Jul 18, 2008

Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Wouldn't a toll on internet traffic also cut out much harmful behaviour beyond email spam?


I don't think so. In fact, spammer's technology allows them to generate a really low traffic in their machines and Internet connections, as they only control a reduced number of zombied machines who control other zombied machines and propagate spam exponentially. If you would charge each user, those who have been infected would be bearing all the cost. They would one day see a 500 euro Internet invoice and would wonder what hit them. They would have to pay, as they would not be able to prove on court that their computer was zombied.

And cyber-attacks work the same way: the attacker is only managing half a dozen zombied machines that secuentially control thousands of other machines. They would pay nuts, but with your proposals we would pay every time they used our computers to harm others. It's like going to jail because your neighbour is a criminal. Completely unacceptable!!

An Internet toll would mean, as with all other tolls enforced today in Europe, that the innocent will cover for the damages caused by criminals.


A ban on flat rates, why not? We also pay for each phone call and SMS-message.

How much would you be willing to pay for this posting you have created? Would 1 cent per message be OK? Maybe 5 cents? Maybe 1 euro for the posting? After all, you are generating traffic that is not necessary.

As for similar situations: In Europe, most killers use kitchen knifes. Do you support a toll on kitchen knives? Will a toll on kitchen knives stop killings with kitchen knives? No sir!

[Edited at 2008-07-18 10:09]


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Hans G. Liepert  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 12:27
English to German
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Flatrates Jul 18, 2008

Heinrich Pesch wrote:
...
A ban on flat rates, why not? We also pay for each phone call and SMS-message.


You probably do - in Germany there are flat rates for phonecalls (land line and mobile phone) and even flat rates for calls to foreign countries at a minimal fee, eg. € 3 /month for all outgoing calls to all neighboring states of Germany, available.

It is a fairy tale that a toll on each and every action is helping us - it helps a small community of professionals, who want to get our money through seeding a bad conscience (flying across the world to attend green conferences and eco summits)

[Bearbeitet am 2008-07-18 10:21]

[Bearbeitet am 2008-07-18 10:24]


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Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 12:27
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
Megawatts - a little factoid Jul 18, 2008

The Columbia river basin is the place where plutonium for Nagasaki and other places was being produced some time ago - there's bar stories about seeing fluorescing coyotes in the dark etc). You need baseload power, and a lot of it for the enrichment, the major reason for establishing the industry there. See for instance

http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/NUCSAF/HCleanup.shtml

Now there's enough plutonium available worldwide to kill us all - even without exploding it, so the Columbia river found a new job: its power helps us Google. Of course do not expect to be able to find those computer farms on GoogleEarth. No names on the roofs.


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tectranslate ITS GmbH
Local time: 12:27
German
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Careful alright Jul 18, 2008

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:

Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Seriously, I would advocate a toll on Internet traffic in order to get rid of span at least. 80 percent of traffic is just spam.


Heinrich, please be careful. Let's correct the figure. 80% of EMAIL traffic, which itself accounts for a small part of all Internet traffic. The lion's share of traffic is generated by web and multimedia services. Think about Youtube, Flickr and all the content-rich sites generating tons of live, bulky loads.

If I were to wager a guess, I'd say the lion's share of traffic is still generated by P2P file sharing, i.e. people "pirating" music, games, software and videos. Agree that most e-mail traffic is probably spam, though.

B


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