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Off topic: Translation agencies on high horses
Thread poster: 564354352 (X)
Christel Zipfel
Christel Zipfel  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:11
Member (2004)
Italian to German
+ ...
Exactly my experience May 9, 2013

Nicole Schnell wrote:

Heinrich Pesch wrote:

If someone is interested they can look up my profile and download my cv there. Serious agencies just send the file, ask for a quote and either agree or look elsewhere.


My greatest (not a typo, I mean it) agency clients have interviewed me on the phone. Without exception they called me out of the blue and we talked for a minimum of half an hour, fun and giggles included. Those companies built my career in translating.

I do not trust companies who consider me to be a vending machine, so the idea "Here is the file. You send translation, I send money" doesn't really fly.


Well, maybe we didn't talk for half an hour (I don't remember really), but those have been since then among my trustiest customers. Pick up the phone and just talk to the person you are interested in! This may give you a clearer and more lasting impression than hundreds of forms.

I don't send out CVs, let alone fill out any forms any more. Like Fiona, I have got to the conviction that the effort in filling out forms and so on is inversely proportional to the amount of work you will ever get. Figuring in a database has hardly fed anybody:-)


 
Nicole Schnell
Nicole Schnell  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:11
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Well, stehletheo - that is correct. Sort of. May 10, 2013

stehletheo wrote:
money talks loudest in these dynamics. The rest is wishful thinking.


"Money talks loudest" - You know, I like money, too. Which is why my own bank account balance is very important to me and I give a [insert animal of your choice]'s [insert scientific name for hindquarters of animal of your choice] about how to save money for total strangers. I run a business, not a soup kitchen. Don't steal my time.

The choice between being a beggar or a business person is up to you. The blame game / "Alas, I am the poor victim!!" number is totally inappropriate for a business owner.


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 05:11
Chinese to English
Economists and their failure to define things May 10, 2013

stehletheo wrote:

The sad truth is that everything in a true free-market economic world revolves around supply and demand, and the supply (of translators) obviously exceeds the demand (by agencies / clients), so the latter can afford to pick and choose, determine the remuneration, be arrogant, etc.


Yeah, right, if a translator is defined as "anyone who claims to be able to translate". In most language pairs, the supply of actual translators is quite small. There's probably undersupply even in the most established European pairs. And to a close approximation, the supply of real translators in Asian-European language pairs is zero.

Which is not to say I necessarily support a full system of professional qualifications. There is a middle path, which is that we stop being infected by the language of economists, and we start understanding words properly. So, "translator" should mean translator, not any idiot from (Asian country) who offers to do it for one cent.


 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 22:11
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
The best clients don't have time for hassle May 10, 2013

I have to admit that I am suspicious of the form-filling requests and too much of anarchist to get on well with clients who try to press me into a box. And I just get stubborn with arrogant agencies.

On the other hand, I send B-to-B mails to clients now and then with my opinions on jobs and they way we work... or requests for information, and I usually get helpful answers back.
I do try to put my point politely, or call them and start with a pacifying 'I know it's not your fa
... See more
I have to admit that I am suspicious of the form-filling requests and too much of anarchist to get on well with clients who try to press me into a box. And I just get stubborn with arrogant agencies.

On the other hand, I send B-to-B mails to clients now and then with my opinions on jobs and they way we work... or requests for information, and I usually get helpful answers back.
I do try to put my point politely, or call them and start with a pacifying 'I know it's not your fault ...' to the person who picks up the phone. But I can be a stroppy bitch if being nice doesn't work!

Most of my best clients have found me on the CIoL find-a-linguist page or Proz.com, offered me a job and asked for my rates. We take it from there.

They do often come back later for more details about what subject areas I work in and relevant things like that, and I have a PDF with exam certificates and a skeleton CV that I can attach to a mail in a few seconds on request.

Good agencies do all the work I hate, so I appreciate them. And somehow they manage without a lot of hassle - they appreciate that the personal touch can often sort out a question quickly before it becomes a problem...

It is worth supporting agencies like that and providing the arguments they need to educate end clients. They do exist!
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564354352 (X)
564354352 (X)  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 22:11
Danish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I agree, good agencies do exist May 10, 2013

My initial rant was aimed at those agencies that simply make too much fuss about forms and who don't see translators as equals, let alone as experts in a trade that takes skill, qualifications and experience.

I know of other agencies that are fully professional and who treat me as a professional business associate, and with whom I am very happy to work.


 
John Fossey
John Fossey  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 17:11
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
Supply or demand May 10, 2013

stehletheo wrote:

... the supply (of translators) obviously exceeds the demand (by agencies / clients), so the latter can afford to pick and choose, determine the remuneration, be arrogant, etc.



I don't think I could agree with this. It's only true for commodities, so it may be true for that end of the market dealing with mediocre translators working with mediocre agencies/clients. But for any professional translator, committed to continual self-improvement and professional development and prepared to learn how to market themselves, it's a pretty rarified atmosphere with little competition. In this case, it's the translator who can pick and choose.


 
Nicholas Pain
Nicholas Pain  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:11
Russian to English
+ ...
Definite downward trend with many agencies May 10, 2013

First off, I agree with John Fossey - experience and ability do thin out the competition a bit!

Secondly, I think that inexperienced linguists and non-linguists are becoming increasingly prevalent and that accounts for some of the "hoops" that we're all facing - a lot of them don't know a good translator from someone who 'did' French at school and so they are trying to cover for a lack of experience on their own parts with questionnaires, references and all kinds of other stuff. ... See more
First off, I agree with John Fossey - experience and ability do thin out the competition a bit!

Secondly, I think that inexperienced linguists and non-linguists are becoming increasingly prevalent and that accounts for some of the "hoops" that we're all facing - a lot of them don't know a good translator from someone who 'did' French at school and so they are trying to cover for a lack of experience on their own parts with questionnaires, references and all kinds of other stuff.

If they were experienced, they'd be able to judge a good bet based on a test translation and a few small trial jobs - quality, delivery, attitude, etc.

[Edited at 2013-05-11 00:00 GMT]
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Wolf Kux
Wolf Kux  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 18:11
Member (2006)
German to Portuguese
+ ...
There are translation agencies and translation agencies ... May 11, 2013

..., some of the first type of them ask you to fill out forms, on which they want to know among other infos, your shoe size, your blood group, your mass/body index, etc.; later they ask you to do a translation test and after it, they send you a leonine agreement, like "we pay only after 90 days or so, provided that this 90th. day is a fully sunshine day", "you could not contact their client during twenty years after termination of the last translation done to that agency" and so on.

... See more
..., some of the first type of them ask you to fill out forms, on which they want to know among other infos, your shoe size, your blood group, your mass/body index, etc.; later they ask you to do a translation test and after it, they send you a leonine agreement, like "we pay only after 90 days or so, provided that this 90th. day is a fully sunshine day", "you could not contact their client during twenty years after termination of the last translation done to that agency" and so on.

But, here is the clue: such agencies think that, if someone passes all those steps and agree to sign such leonine agreements, then the translator is not serious, but if he/she cries against such agreements, then it could be worth to negotiate with that translator.

The second one type of agencies only send tasks to be done.
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Abba Storgen (X)
Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 16:11
Greek to English
+ ...
Did you ever ask your dentist to send you his resume? May 12, 2013

"This particular angle actually touches on the broad problem of translators being viewed as a subset of office assistants."

That's the impression that translators give about themselves to the outside world. Small, passive, obedient.
Too much loneliness in front of a computer screen does that. When you spend 90% of your waking time alone waiting for emails, you can't have much confidence.

Every time I attended a translator's conference I felt I would say "bo
... See more
"This particular angle actually touches on the broad problem of translators being viewed as a subset of office assistants."

That's the impression that translators give about themselves to the outside world. Small, passive, obedient.
Too much loneliness in front of a computer screen does that. When you spend 90% of your waking time alone waiting for emails, you can't have much confidence.

Every time I attended a translator's conference I felt I would say "boo" and I'd scare them all to death. They are under the impression that anyone can be a full time translator, so they willingly assume the body position that matches their perceptions. Did I mention that physically speaking they were in the worst shape of all professionals I have ever seen in conferences?

Many times I have wished for Google to take it all, so that I will meet with the agency owners in the same unemployment line.

==============================================

"Why don't they look at the individual presentations instead of trying to push everybody into an anonymous format?"

Again - translators kept to themselves, never wanted to unite with other translators, they have no combined strength, and they do not matter.

=============================================

"we are simply here offering our services, business to business"

Nope. Actually, you' re doing all the work, they get most of the money. You' re not offering a service. You and the editor are doing the entire work on the product. You are the manufacturer, they are the sales people - funny, they keep 70%.

=============================================

If you really had your own business, you would be able to sell it 20 years later for some money. You can't. Because it's NOT a business. It's labor for hire and has no further value.
That is why they treat you as a "remote worker", and that is why they call it "application". Even if you, personally, have assets 3 times more than the new "agency", the facts of the trade allows them to assume a certain posture.

On top of it, a few agencies train their managers to negotiate very low rates with the remote workers (they call them "vendors", to alleviate their guilt). Then they go out for drinks (with the money that you made for them), and talk in general about socialism and helping the poor, because they want to be "hip".
The fact that they' re in the business of pushing down the little guy every day in order to maximize their corporate profits, easily changes by renaming "translator" to "vendor".

See?
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564354352 (X)
564354352 (X)  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 22:11
Danish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Business vs labour May 12, 2013

Well, I don't know how you work, Eleftherios, and you may consider yourself a manufacturer, hired labourer etc. But in my case, I am my own boss, as a self-employed, independent translator who runs a (one-person) VAT registered small enterprise. And yes, I offer a service as opposed to a tangible product, and when I work with agencies, I am a part of a supply chain, not a production line.
I have no problem whatsoever with agencies taking a cut of the pay for the service that is supplied (m
... See more
Well, I don't know how you work, Eleftherios, and you may consider yourself a manufacturer, hired labourer etc. But in my case, I am my own boss, as a self-employed, independent translator who runs a (one-person) VAT registered small enterprise. And yes, I offer a service as opposed to a tangible product, and when I work with agencies, I am a part of a supply chain, not a production line.
I have no problem whatsoever with agencies taking a cut of the pay for the service that is supplied (my work) to an end client, after all, agencies have put in the effort to establish a portfolio of their own clients, and they do the administrative work in connection with the service that I provide. I don't even have a problem with how big or small a percentage they rake in on the work that I do, as long as I get what I want out of the deal. I just want to be treated with respect, that's all.

Not all businesses can be sold on, so that argument just doesn't hold water.

I presume that you are taking the viewpoint of the translation agencies in order to help us see how we are perceived from 'their' perspective.

Even so, I find it sad that you would speak about translators in such sweeping, derogative terms. You may be right in some respects, that we work mostly alone and probably develop some rather 'unique' personal characteristics... but it may also be that we have chosen this particular profession and this way of working because we already have certain characteristics, i.e. that we LIKE working alone, from home with all the freedom that comes with this.
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Abba Storgen (X)
Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 16:11
Greek to English
+ ...
Consumer/end-client disclosure - Who will blow the whistle May 12, 2013

"I don't think regulation of the industry will solve the problem, it is a question of attitude: the agencies think they are the bosses and that the translators are the minions. Quite simple. .... what they do is shuffle jobs between translators and end clients, work which in many cases can be carried out by people with basic office skills."

It's even worse than that. The vast majority of corporate end-clients (including the medical/pharma and legal field) assume that the
... See more
"I don't think regulation of the industry will solve the problem, it is a question of attitude: the agencies think they are the bosses and that the translators are the minions. Quite simple. .... what they do is shuffle jobs between translators and end clients, work which in many cases can be carried out by people with basic office skills."

It's even worse than that. The vast majority of corporate end-clients (including the medical/pharma and legal field) assume that the agencies have internal translators. They do not know that agencies send their confidential documents to the cheapest possible external translators all over the world.

Believe me, I do have friends and relatives in five large corporations and former colleagues in three more. These people (the end-clients) are under the assumption that "translators inside the agencies charge a lot of money"; they have no idea that only a small fraction of the price goes to the actual (external) translators.

What if someone blows the whistle to the end-clients?
After that, end-clients will be SO careful in selecting providers, that this will work much better than any regulation could ever achieve, don't you agree Mr. Stehletheo?
End-clients will ask the agencies to provide them with the names of the external translators and their work orders.

Isn't reasonable disclosure a required function of our western free markets? Because it's not only a matter of supply and demand at the present stage, it's also a matter of lies. If the agency says "we have the best specialists in the market" and then they just send it to the cheapest external translators on their list that passed a 300-word test just a few months ago, then the agency is lying to the client.

Everything in this industry is currently operating the way it is, because most LSPs are not telling the truth to the end-clients about who is actually translating their confidential documents. Legally speaking, end-clients (consumers) have a right to full disclosure about the products they' re buying and about who's handling their documents.

Why do you think so many LSPs behave this way? Because of "anonymity" and separation among the translators. Nobody sees what they' re doing.


PS. Gitte, if you were your own boss, you'd also be setting your own deadlines. You' re a contractor, that's hired labor. Any other label assigned to it is wishful thinking. You only choice in this business, is to chose whether you will negotiate +/- 10% or more of a fee or a short deadline extension. But you' re not building an asset that you can sell later on, other than labor itself.
Contrary to that, a small but successful agency can be sold to a larger one and the owner will receive money. You helped him build his value, but you are not participating in the profits after the sale. With each project you finish, you waive all the value you create. Next day, you start from scratch again. Every single day.



"Not all businesses can be sold on, so that argument just doesn't hold water."

It doesn't have to apply 100% for it to be true. A lot of small yet solid agencies have been sold lately - lots of them. A business may not be sold, yes, it doesn't apply all the time, but it can be sold if it's good. Contrary to that, an excellent translator, top 0.1%, can't sell his business, only his daily labor, as long as he can provide it. And the better he is, the more difficult it becomes for him to find a replacement for his vacation. Oh, sorry, I forgot, we don't take those.




[Edited at 2013-05-12 07:16 GMT]
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Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 05:11
Chinese to English
I do set my own deadlines... May 12, 2013

Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:

PS. Gitte, if you were your own boss, you'd also be setting your own deadlines.


I don't know how it happens with your clients, but mine always ask if their proposed deadline is OK. If it is, I accept it; if not, I tell them what I can achieve. There are plenty of good, respectful clients out there. And plenty of bad ones, of course, but I don't think the good have been completely drowned out yet.


 
564354352 (X)
564354352 (X)  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 22:11
Danish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Deadlines May 12, 2013

I completely overlooked this little comment from Eleftherios earlier - probably because it made no sense to me and I had no clue why he brought it up.

I do business with other business people, and we negotiate terms, including deadlines, how complicated or weird is that?

As it happens, most of my clients come to me and say, "when can you have this translation ready?", and I would generally ask, "when do you need it?" because the two things are not necessarily the same.
... See more
I completely overlooked this little comment from Eleftherios earlier - probably because it made no sense to me and I had no clue why he brought it up.

I do business with other business people, and we negotiate terms, including deadlines, how complicated or weird is that?

As it happens, most of my clients come to me and say, "when can you have this translation ready?", and I would generally ask, "when do you need it?" because the two things are not necessarily the same. Some clients will be worried whether it is too much to expect that a 10,000 word file can be delivered within six weeks, while others desperately hope that you can deliver their work yesterday, but (most often) realise that this is unlikely. In some cases, I may be able to start on a job immediately, but the client doesn't actually need the translation immediately, so we agree on a flexible deadline and I fit the job in as it suits me.

Nobody 'tells' me what to do. I am the boss of me.
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inkweaver
inkweaver  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 22:11
French to German
+ ...
The truth according to Mr Kritikakis... May 12, 2013

is, thankfully, not a universal one. If his truth is so bleak, though, I wonder why he hasn't found himself a "nice" office job...

My personal truth is quite different, in fact. I support myself and my daughter, I take at least two weeks off in summer, we go on holiday every year and my agency clients are still there when I get back... And yes, the good ones do ask whether a deadline is acceptable or even when I think I would be able to deliver.

In fact I also get a lo
... See more
is, thankfully, not a universal one. If his truth is so bleak, though, I wonder why he hasn't found himself a "nice" office job...

My personal truth is quite different, in fact. I support myself and my daughter, I take at least two weeks off in summer, we go on holiday every year and my agency clients are still there when I get back... And yes, the good ones do ask whether a deadline is acceptable or even when I think I would be able to deliver.

In fact I also get a lot of fresh air, much more than your average employee does, I go to the swimming pool four times a week, I go outside whenever I feel like it and I would not want to swap with anyone who has to spend their day locked away in an airconditioned office with a boss breathing down their neck all the time. No, thank you very much indeed.

Gitte Hovedskov Hansen wrote:

Well, I don't know how you work, Eleftherios, and you may consider yourself a manufacturer, hired labourer etc. But in my case, I am my own boss, as a self-employed, independent translator who runs a (one-person) VAT registered small enterprise. And yes, I offer a service as opposed to a tangible product, and when I work with agencies, I am a part of a supply chain, not a production line.
I have no problem whatsoever with agencies taking a cut of the pay for the service that is supplied (my work) to an end client, after all, agencies have put in the effort to establish a portfolio of their own clients, and they do the administrative work in connection with the service that I provide. I don't even have a problem with how big or small a percentage they rake in on the work that I do, as long as I get what I want out of the deal. I just want to be treated with respect, that's all.

Not all businesses can be sold on, so that argument just doesn't hold water.

I presume that you are taking the viewpoint of the translation agencies in order to help us see how we are perceived from 'their' perspective.

Even so, I find it sad that you would speak about translators in such sweeping, derogative terms. You may be right in some respects, that we work mostly alone and probably develop some rather 'unique' personal characteristics... but it may also be that we have chosen this particular profession and this way of working because we already have certain characteristics, i.e. that we LIKE working alone, from home with all the freedom that comes with this.




Now where is the "Like" button...
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Abba Storgen (X)
Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 16:11
Greek to English
+ ...
Of course there are May 12, 2013

Of course there are wonderful agencies out there, I have a few and I help them as much as I can by giving them market pointers occasionally. But that's not where the industry is headed, they are the back cars of the train, still in the old stations.

"If his truth is so bleak, though, I wonder why he hasn't found himself a "nice" office job..."

I was not talking about myself, but about realizing the true nature of this occupation.
My truth was bleak most of
... See more
Of course there are wonderful agencies out there, I have a few and I help them as much as I can by giving them market pointers occasionally. But that's not where the industry is headed, they are the back cars of the train, still in the old stations.

"If his truth is so bleak, though, I wonder why he hasn't found himself a "nice" office job..."

I was not talking about myself, but about realizing the true nature of this occupation.
My truth was bleak most of the times in all jobs, because I was among the very good and very ambitious ones. I would never rest. However, my self-inflicted torture of the past, is now spreading quickly to the ones that were never ambitious, and to them, it's not a choice anymore (nor is it to me anymore). Not to mention that each language pair is different - huge differences at times. Please do not talk as if translators live in a sort of bliss just because you go to a pool once in a while - you' re paying for that pool, it's not free at all.

Remember how this thread started.


[Edited at 2013-05-12 14:38 GMT]
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Translation agencies on high horses






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