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Off topic: Dutch word order in English text because translator didn’t know how to reorder tags in CAT tool!
Thread poster: Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer

Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:51
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Aug 13, 2014

There is nothing funnier (ha ha) than watching a translator try to retain the word order of their source language just so they won’t have to reorder any (sequential) tags in their CAT tool, lest they end up with tag errors during the QA stage. If you don't know what I am talking about, you’ve either been lucky and haven’t come across this problem, or … you’re doing it yourself

So I have this huuuuuuge text, translated from Dutch into English (still trying to guess the person’s nationality; it’s definitely not American or British), but with Dutch word order, because they weren’t able to reorder the tags in their CAT tool while translating.

Incidentally, a quick Google seems to indicate that this might be a common problem. I wonder how many non-native sounding texts out there are the result of some poor soul trying to shoehorn their translation into their source text’s word order.

See e.g.: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=English%20text%20"with%20Dutch%20word%20order"&oq=English%20text%20"with%20Dutch%20word%20order"&gs_l=serp.3...18612.20073.0.20342.8.8.0.0.0.1.137.780.1j6.7.0....0...1c.1.51.serp..6.2.264.Jqk8QejMeXU (Google search for: English text "with Dutch word order")

Michael

[Edited at 2014-08-14 17:41 GMT]


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Tina Vonhof  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 00:51
Member (2006)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Wordorder is #1 problem Aug 14, 2014

From what I have seen, word order is the #1 problem for Dutch-English translators, regardless of whether or not they are using a CAT tool.

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Tim Drayton  Identity Verified
Cyprus
Local time: 09:51
Turkish to English
+ ...
What about less similar languages Aug 14, 2014

Try doing that from Turkish to English and you would end up with:

"Bread buy to market-to went-I"

for

"I went to the market to buy bread"!


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Theo Bernards  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 08:51
English to Dutch
+ ...
Go to Facebook... Aug 14, 2014

...there is a whole page dedicated to this Dutch to English problem: Make that the Cat Wise . It is indeed a problem of sorts, because not only do some translators not handle tags very well, but many Dutch translators think they can translate just as easily from Dutch to English as the more usual English to Dutch. While I don't necessarily agree to the mother tongue principle that seems unilaterally agreed upon by so many, I do agree that, in order to translate to another language than your mother tongue, you must be very, very, very good in that target language and master it at least at near-native level.

It could also mean that the text is translated in-house, by someone who is generally praised for their English skills (when I was employed by Oracle, about a decade ago, I was often asked to translate documents to English, although it must be said that such texts were for internal use only).

Anyway, just my two cents on the subject .


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Michal Fabian  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 02:51
Member (2012)
Dutch to Slovak
+ ...
If it's any consolation... Aug 14, 2014

... this is a problem for all language pairs.

Dutch is my source language and the translations I get to review sometimes leave me cross-eyed. But who cares - certainly not the client, who got their text for cheap, and apparently, not the translator either.


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:51
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for the link to the hilarious Facebook page! Aug 14, 2014

Theo Bernards wrote:

...there is a whole page dedicated to this Dutch to English problem: Make that the Cat Wise . It is indeed a problem of sorts, because not only do some translators not handle tags very well, but many Dutch translators think they can translate just as easily from Dutch to English as the more usual English to Dutch. While I don't necessarily agree to the mother tongue principle that seems unilaterally agreed upon by so many, I do agree that, in order to translate to another language than your mother tongue, you must be very, very, very good in that target language and master it at least at near-native level.

It could also mean that the text is translated in-house, by someone who is generally praised for their English skills (when I was employed by Oracle, about a decade ago, I was often asked to translate documents to English, although it must be said that such texts were for internal use only).

Anyway, just my two cents on the subject .


I do wonder though, why do so many Dutch people choose to translate from Dutch into English. Why don't they just stick to EN>NL? Is it because there is much more work into English? I have no idea really, as all I do is Dutch into English. Or do they really think their English is good enough? I hope not. In any case, it makes for some funny reading, so I suppose it's not all bad.

I'm definitely buying that book (http://goo.gl/0oNxET )!

Michael


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 01:51
German to English
Dutch cowboys Aug 14, 2014

Shopaholics can eat their hart out in Scheveningen. The boulevard offers the most touristic kind of shops. Whilst the Palace Promenade and the Keizerstraat gives a wider shopping selection. Do realize that the prices might be slightly higher on the boulevard then in the regular shops. Grab that shopping bag and shop till you drop!

In March a huge transformation takes place on the beach. More than 35 beach clubs are build up and give a completely different view of the coast. All beach clubs are made ready for the rest of the summer season. Make sure to stroll alongside the boulevard to find you ideal beach club. More than enough choice. All beach clubs open around 12:00 and close at 00:30. Check out below the hottest beach clubs Scheveningen has to offer.

City pier city run - if you like running go to the city pier city run is your event to attend. You run from the city to the pier (dock) and back again. Experienced runners should only try to attempt this run.

http://scheveningenbeach.com/en


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Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 15:51
Japanese to English
+ ...
Hmm Aug 15, 2014

Kim Metzger wrote:


Shopaholics can eat their hart out in Scheveningen. The boulevard offers the most touristic kind of shops. Whilst the Palace Promenade and the Keizerstraat gives a wider shopping selection. Do realize that the prices might be slightly higher on the boulevard then in the regular shops. Grab that shopping bag and shop till you drop!

In March a huge transformation takes place on the beach. More than 35 beach clubs are build up and give a completely different view of the coast. All beach clubs are made ready for the rest of the summer season. Make sure to stroll alongside the boulevard to find you ideal beach club. More than enough choice. All beach clubs open around 12:00 and close at 00:30. Check out below the hottest beach clubs Scheveningen has to offer.

City pier city run - if you like running go to the city pier city run is your event to attend. You run from the city to the pier (dock) and back again. Experienced runners should only try to attempt this run.

http://scheveningenbeach.com/en


Not a bad defense, although I prefer the Najdorf if I am going to play an Open Sicilian.


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:51
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Dutch cowboys indeed! Aug 16, 2014

Kim Metzger wrote:

Shopaholics can eat their hart out in Scheveningen. The boulevard offers the most touristic kind of shops. Whilst the Palace Promenade and the Keizerstraat gives a wider shopping selection. Do realize that the prices might be slightly higher on the boulevard then in the regular shops. Grab that shopping bag and shop till you drop!

In March a huge transformation takes place on the beach. More than 35 beach clubs are build up and give a completely different view of the coast. All beach clubs are made ready for the rest of the summer season. Make sure to stroll alongside the boulevard to find you ideal beach club. More than enough choice. All beach clubs open around 12:00 and close at 00:30. Check out below the hottest beach clubs Scheveningen has to offer.

City pier city run - if you like running go to the city pier city run is your event to attend. You run from the city to the pier (dock) and back again. Experienced runners should only try to attempt this run.

http://scheveningenbeach.com/en


Hilarious stuff Kim.

I really am starting to think that Dutch people actually believe their English is good enough to allow them to translate into English.

For example, in the Dutch > English KudoZ forum, there are a number of Dutch translators who insist on answering every single question, in terrible English, and who give all kinds of crazy answers. The sad thing is they occasionally get one right, and thus creep up in the rankings, meaning clients will see them first when looking for a Dutch to English translator in the search thingee. Oh well, whaddya gonna do?

Michael


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Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule

Sindy Cremer

Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
Insulting Aug 17, 2014

As a Dutch translator, I take offense to how this thread has developed from 'wrong word order due to the translator's inability to reorder tags in a cat tool', to throwing mud at all Dutch translators who provide translation services into English.

If the Topic Starter has a problem with translators translating into their source language, he has the option of opening a new thread or simply joining one of the umpteen existing threads on the subject.

In any case he should change his tone of voice. The Proz forum is no place for personal insults.


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:51
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
@Sindy: Aug 17, 2014

Have you actually seen any of the entries? It's stuff like that that is giving us Dutchies a bad name. It's guilt by association and makes me want to change my Dutch name to something more un-Dutch sounding.

By the way, you can just call me ‘Michael’. There's no need to refer to me as ‘the Topic Starter’.

Michael


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Sindy Cremer

Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
@ Michael Aug 17, 2014

quote

Have you actually seen any of the entries? It's stuff like that that is giving us Dutchies a bad name. It's guilt by association and makes me want to change my Dutch name to something more un-Dutch sounding.

By the way, you can just call me ‘Michael’. There's no need to refer to me as ‘the Topic Starter’.

Michael

unquote




Did you just tell me that you are DUTCH?

[Edited at 2014-08-17 18:19 GMT]


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Michael Joseph Wdowiak Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:51
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
@Sindy: Aug 17, 2014

Yes, I am Dutch. But I am also American. I have two passports. My mother is American (born in New York) and my father was Dutch (born in Amsterdam).

Although we spoke both Dutch and English at home (at various points in time and in various countries), we spoke primarily English (which has always been my stronger language), which is why I only translate from Dutch into English, never the other way around.

The reason I get annoyed when I see things like the recent translation contest entries is that I have a Dutch name (‘Beijer’), so when people see I translate from Dutch into English, they often think of these Dutch people who translate both ways (and into a language that is not their own). As I said: guilt by association.

People should stick to what they are good at. Is there really any need for Dutch people to translate both ways? I mean, isn't there enough EN>NL work?

I think the results of this year's contest are symptomatic of a larger problem: Dunglish. I'm sure this problem is not restricted to our language pair/direction, but I do think that we have it more erg than others. Just have a look online at all the bad press we are getting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunglish
http://www.dunglish.nl/
http://www.makethatthecatwise.nl/
http://www.makethatthecatwise.nl/dunglish-explained/
http://www.freedutch.nl/node/94
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steenkolenengels
http://www.steenkolenengels.com/

This can't be doing us, as professional Dutch to English and English to Dutch translators, any good. That's why I wish the Dutchies would stick to EN>NL, and the Brits, Americans, Australians, etc. would handle the opposite direction.

#########################################
I have yet to see a Dutch person (and I mean a real Dutch person) who can produce a decent English translation of a Dutch text (without relying heavily on a proofreader). And yet look how many Dutch people there are in our industry who happily claim to be able to translate both ways.

And then compare this with the amount of Brits or Americans you know who translate from English into Dutch…
#########################################

Michael

[Edited at 2014-08-17 20:05 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-08-17 21:17 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-08-17 21:18 GMT]


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Sindy Cremer

Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
Michael Aug 17, 2014

please do not 'us' me.

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Dutch word order in English text because translator didn’t know how to reorder tags in CAT tool!

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