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Stubborn client wants a word that looks like a booklet print
Thread poster: dgonneau

dgonneau  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 22:19
English to French
+ ...
Jul 10, 2009

Who said the client is king ? please let me bash an iron axe on the head of that personicon_biggrin.gif

Let me tell you about a little problem I'm facing with a client a little too much stubborn.

I handled a project wich was delivered to me as PDF, the layout was a booklet print (2 pages per fold of paper, in landscape) and of course page orders and matching so that the booklet can be read correctly.

I did an lenghtly process of OCR with Abbyy to finally get a word file reorganized in a normal layout (page 1, page 2, ....), one page per fold of paper.

After translating the word file, I delivered a PDF file printed like a booklet.

Now the customer also wants the word file as a booklet !! you'll agree with me that such demand is stupid ? if you alter the text, all the layout will be broken ....

What are my options there ? I can OCR again the translated pdf file, but that's the best I can do...


 

Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 22:19
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
How did you deliver the PDF? Jul 10, 2009

What was the source format for you to create a PDF?
TBH I do not find this demand stupid, if it was said upfront, that you have to deliver layouted text...
I know it is not trivial to set up nice layout, but otherwise possible. In such situation I try to recreate layout already before translation. I convert PDF to plain text, open that in Word and format from scratch. Does not take really long, if the layout is somehow "human". For "unhuman" layouts I either request the original editable file or refuse to deliver layouted text.


 

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 22:19
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
If the PDF looks correct, then you've done your job Jul 10, 2009

david gonneau wrote:
After translating the word file, I delivered a PDF file printed like a booklet. ... Now the customer also wants the word file as a booklet !! you'll agree with me that such demand is stupid ? if you alter the text, all the layout will be broken ....


If the PDF file is in the correct format (i.e. it can be printed as a booklet) then I think you have done your job. The client should be made to understand that the Word file is a source file for the PDF, and that the PDF and the Word file don't necessarily look the same.

However, if your PDF is not a booklet, but needs to be hacked to get it in booklet form, then you may have delivered the wrong format.


 

dgonneau  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 22:19
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
it does is stupid Jul 10, 2009

I delivered the PDF based on a normal word file that is ther result of what abbyy calls "splitted ocr" : pages that contains in fact 2 pages are splitted in two to have again the normal flow of pages.

The demand of the client does is stupid.

Consider the following :

1st fold of paper : mix of page 5 and 16
2nd fold of paper: mix of page 6 and 15

now translate that

text lenght will change

now page 16 included on fold 1 is bigger and is pushing away the content of page 6 on fold 2

==> some of the content of page 16 is now display at the beginning of page 6

it's just not workable !!!

And even if you spend hours and hours of work and you manage to get it right, when the client wants to change something there is a good change that the same problem happens again and will call you back to ask "what the hell ?"...

There's just no use having an editable document that looks like a booklet, it's like wanting to put a square in triangle ...

You manage the source document as normal flow and you print as you wish, normal order or booklet !

If word was handling a display mode of booklet, I would be saved ...
Or is there any other free file format / trick that would make this possible ?

I repeat that my decision is to make an ocr of the translated booklet to have again a word file ... but it won't be maintainable !


 

dgonneau  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 22:19
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
source was booklet, delivered also Jul 10, 2009

Samuel Murray wrote:
However, if your PDF is not a booklet, but needs to be hacked to get it in booklet form, then you may have delivered the wrong format.


I received a pdf shaped as a booklet (2 pages per fold of paper) and delivered a word file with normal flow of page (1 page per fold) and a print of the word file in booklet mode in pdf format ... so the client should be happy....

except that he is not and do wants the word as a booklet !


 

Arnaud HERVE  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 22:19
English to French
+ ...
PDF Jul 10, 2009

In case the client wants a perfect professional booklet, he must behave as a professional too.

Which means he has to provide you with the origin of the PDF file. There is a chain of process in PDFs for publication, and it is the original file from the layout processing software that you must get, then freeze in PDF.

For example a file from InDesign, or Quark.

It appears the client was not able to send you the right file. Reproducing PDF from PDF can only be some sort of hacking, you can't do better.


 

Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 22:19
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Has the client ordered a formatted Word file upfront? Jul 10, 2009

Or does he come with that wish after the delivery?
You delivered in fact all what the customer need, as from what you've wrote I understand that you gave him also a Word file. That is fine - we are translators, not layouter.
As I said - should I be asked for delivery of a formatted Word file, I may either accept and charge for that or deny and deliver just plain text.


 

dgonneau  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 22:19
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I'll make him pay ... :) Jul 10, 2009

Jerzy Czopik wrote:
Or does he come with that wish after the delivery?

that's after the delivery. my tender was same format as source ...

Jerzy Czopik wrote: I may either accept and charge for that or deny and deliver just plain text.

he'll be charged for sure... just sharing the asburdity with my fellow translators and ... trying to see if there's a wise way to do this.

I'll soon post a job about this process as I don't have time to handle this...

anyone want to try ?icon_smile.gif


 

Marko Oreškovič  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:19
German to Slovenian
+ ...
Trying to do it in Word: insane Jul 10, 2009

Even if you somehow manage to format the Word document to correct page order, the layout will break apart as soon as your customer makes any larger modifications to the document. I assume this is the main reason why they want you to deliver your translation in a formatted Word document. (Edit: nonsense, please disregard: If this is the case, just teach them how to print from Word to PDF using two-page layout like you did.)
Or convince your customer to accept InDesign format and I can do the DTP work for you.icon_biggrin.gif

[Edited at 2009-07-10 14:50 GMT]


 

Nicole Schnell  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:19
English to German
+ ...
When the typesetter or layouter doesn't speak the target language Jul 10, 2009

david gonneau wrote:

The demand of the client does is stupid.

Consider the following :

1st fold of paper : mix of page 5 and 16
2nd fold of paper: mix of page 6 and 15

now translate that

text lenght will change

now page 16 included on fold 1 is bigger and is pushing away the content of page 6 on fold 2

==> some of the content of page 16 is now display at the beginning of page 6



I believe your client just wants to make sure that the typesetter knows which text belongs where. Which is crucial, especially when the typesetter doesn't speak he target language. In such cases I simply adjust the font size to make it fit.


 

dgonneau  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 22:19
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
indesign booklet ? Jul 10, 2009

Marko Oreškovič wrote:
Or convince your customer to accept InDesign format and I can do the DTP work for you.icon_biggrin.gif


Well... even with InDesign you woudln't be able to have a document in booklet layout that is editable without changing the layout right ?
I guess you mean that in InDesign you can easily print as a booklet ?


 

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 22:19
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Some comments Jul 10, 2009

david gonneau wrote:
now translate that
...
text lenght will change
...
now page 16 included on fold 1 is bigger and is pushing away the content of page 6 on fold 2


I see your problem. And I agree that MS Word is not the appropriate source format for this. MS Publisher may be more suitable (but then the client might complain that he doesn't have Publisher and he wants you to convert it to X, Y or Z again).

If word was handling a display mode of booklet, I would be saved ...
Or is there any other free file format / trick that would make this possible ?


Well, there is Scribus, which is a free DTP application. I'm not sure how well it handles boxes that flow over multiple pages, though. Scribus is not compatible with MS Word -- you can't import and export between the two (just copy and paste), but I assume that that would be what you'd want to do anway: translate in MS Word and then put the text in a DTP format from which the PDF can be exported/printed at any time.



[Edited at 2009-07-10 14:23 GMT]


 

sarandor  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:19
English to Russian
+ ...
Word text boxes, perhaps? Jul 10, 2009

You can place two textboxes next to each other on a Word page - each one for separate page. Not a very sophisticated solution, but it might help to reproduce the two-page layout in Word.

 

Marko Oreškovič  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:19
German to Slovenian
+ ...
Easily done in InDesign Jul 10, 2009

david gonneau wrote:

Marko Oreškovič wrote:
Or convince your customer to accept InDesign format and I can do the DTP work for you.icon_biggrin.gif


Well... even with InDesign you woudln't be able to have a document in booklet layout that is editable without changing the layout right ?
I guess you mean that in InDesign you can easily print as a booklet ?


In InDesign, you first create the layout (for example left and right page of a spread) and then fill it with content. Text boxes on successive pages can be connected so that text flows automatically from one box to another. This means that the text is distributed automatically through the whole document when you change, delete or add something.

The pages are always edited in the consecutive order (1, 2, 3), just like in Word. After you have finished your layout, you instruct the program to print the booklet for you to a printer or to a PDF file with correct impositions. This means that pages 5 and 16, 6 and 15 etc. are put together automatically, and this is done completely outside the editing process, as it should be.

To illustrate this, I created two PDFs (took about 3 minutes). The first one shows the A5 pages in consecutive order (http://www.oreskovic.si/bookletconsecutive.pdf) and the second one shows the automatically prepared impositions (http://www.oreskovic.si/bookletimpositions.pdf), with page numbers written manually above sample text.

[Edited at 2009-07-10 14:49 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-07-10 14:51 GMT]


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:19
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
MS Word does have a "booklet" format - nobody knows? Jul 10, 2009

May I restate the problem as I understand it?
The translatable file was provided as a PDF.
You put it through OCR to produce an editable text file.
I assume you performed the translation in Word.
Then, you converted the Word file into PDF.
I am not sure how the PDF looked like, but it doesn't matter, as the client wants something else.
If the "something else" is a Word file, formatted as a "booklet", that is not too difficult to create in Word.
(I am sorry if I am explaining something that you already know, but it seems from the responses here that this may be a not well known option in Word.)

I am currently using Word 2007, but the same options are available in earlier versions. In MS Word 2007, go to the Page Layout tab and open up the Page Setup window (click on the bottom right corner of the Page Setup area). On the Margins page, you will find a pull-down listbox called Multiple Pages in the middle. Choose Book fold. Voila!

What it does, it turns the page to Landscape orientation and places two pages on one sheet. When you view it on the screen, the pages will show up in a simple sequential order ("reader spread"). But when you print it, the pages will be automatically paired up for correct double sided printing (so on the first sheet you will have the last page on the left side and the first page on the right side, and on the back of this sheet will be the second page on the left side and the page before the last on the right side). This is called "printer spread".
You can check this in Print Preview.
If you create a PDF by using distiller to "print" into a PDF, the PDF will be arranged the same way (printer spread).

Of course, you may need to change the font size and adjust the layout (pictures will most likely need to be repositioned), so if this was not agreed in advance, you should charge for this work by the hour.

All I wanted to say is that creating a booklet with correct and automatic page pairing is possible in MS Word.

Hope this helps
Katalin

[Edited at 2009-07-10 14:59 GMT]


 
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