Broken video fixed Thread poster: Samuel Murray
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 08:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| | Some questions re the video | Apr 7, 2009 |
Samuel, thanks a million for the effort of making the video. As you surely remember I am a "Tradosist" so let me ask the following to better understand the way of operation of OmegaT. I hope this is the right place to ask! A quick, generic reply is enough!
1. Formatting tags. Seeing you type and edit formatting tags manually gave me the shivers! ... See more Samuel, thanks a million for the effort of making the video. As you surely remember I am a "Tradosist" so let me ask the following to better understand the way of operation of OmegaT. I hope this is the right place to ask! A quick, generic reply is enough!
1. Formatting tags. Seeing you type and edit formatting tags manually gave me the shivers! Not just because the time it takes, but because of the mistakes you can make. Yes, you have this function in OmegaT to check whether you made a mistake, but touching tags is something I would not recommend in general. Do you have a way of copying formatting tags with a shortcut, without having to type them, use Copy/Paste or replace a fuzzy with the new source segment containing the tags? I can easily see situations in which the fuzzy match is generally useful but is missing the tags. In my work many segments have 4, 5, or 12 tags. Copying them manually would take ages.
2. [Fuzzy] mark. Do you have to manually delete the word [Fuzzy] from fuzzy segments?
3. Fuzzy segments. How do you know what has changed from the previous translation to the current translation? You can surely read short sentences and compare them visually, but if you have 30-word sentences as it is most frequently the case, if I had to compare them visually it would be more efficient for me to retranslate them from scratch, thus making the tool useless. I need to know what has changed. There does not seem to be an indication about the degree of match between the previous and current translation (for instance, if there was a low match, I could decide to retranslate; if a high match, I could try to compare visually).
4. Review of new/changed parts. When you want to review the newly translated or changed parts, how can you go to them directly? For instance, think of a 10,000-word document in which only 300 are new (this is a situation that takes place every week here). You surely don't want to review everything again?
6. Spellchecking. Can you spellcheck in OmegaT before making the translated document?
7. File management. What do you have to do in OmegaT if your customer replaces the file in the middle of the project, as it frequently happens? Can you simply delete the half-translated file from the project, add the new file and retranslate?
8. Memory maintenance. Does OmegaT have memory maintenance functions, to allow you to look for and change something directly in the memory without having to reopen the source files? ▲ Collapse
| | | | esperantisto
Local time: 09:37
Member (2006)
English to Russian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Some quick answers | Apr 7, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
1. Formatting tags. … Do you have a way of copying formatting tags with a shortcut, without having to type them
Either retype or copy the source (Shift+Ctrl+I) with all tags and overwrite the contents.
2. [Fuzzy] mark. Do you have to manually delete the word [Fuzzy] from fuzzy segments?
Yes. You can, however, change [Fuzzy] to something else in the settings.
3. Fuzzy segments. How do you know what has changed from the previous translation to the current translation?
In the fuzzy matches window, you can see 5 closes matches from previous translations, differences are highlighted with blue and green colors, and percentages of similarity are shown.
4. Review of new/changed parts. When you want to review the newly translated or changed parts, how can you go to them directly?
Press Ctrl+U to go to the nearest untranslated segment.
6. Spellchecking. Can you spellcheck in OmegaT before making the translated document?
Yes. OmegaT uses Hunspell/JMySpell libraries to check spelling (same are used by OpenOffice.org, Mozilla products and other applications).
7. File management. … Can you simply delete the half-translated file from the project, add the new file and retranslate?
Precisely. Remove/add/replace file(s) in the /source subdirectory and reload the project.
8. Memory maintenance. Does OmegaT have memory maintenance functions,
No.
to allow you to look for and change something directly in the memory
Since it’s TMX, you can change something with any text editor capable of handling texts in UTF-8 (the project must be closed). To have the changes reflected in your translation, re-open the project and re-create target documents.
| | | | | Some confirmations | Apr 7, 2009 |
Thanks a lot Esperantisto! This really helps me get a general picture of how OmegaT works and its capabilities.
esperantisto wrote: Tomás wrote:
4. Review of new/changed parts. When you want to review the newly translated or changed parts, how can you go to them directly? Press Ctrl+U to go to the nearest untranslated segment.
I meant finding the new/changed translated segments for the review, after the translation. Is this still possible?
esperantisto wrote: Tomás wrote:
8. Memory maintenance. Does OmegaT have memory maintenance functions, No.
Then, can you create separate memories you can combine, import or export at will? Does the memory belong to the "project" instead (for instance, can you create an on-going "project" meaning a customer who sends you documents continuously, and keep updating that project's memory)?
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 08:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Answers to Tomás I | Apr 7, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote: As you surely remember I am a "Tradosist"
And keep in mind that I am a Wordfastist.
Seeing you type and edit formatting tags manually gave me the shivers! Not just because the time it takes, but because of the mistakes you can make.
Oh, you noticed how I typed the letter "o" and then corrected it to a zero?
Do you have a way of copying formatting tags with a shortcut, without having to type them, use Copy/Paste or replace a fuzzy with the new source segment containing the tags?
No.
Do you have to manually delete the word [Fuzzy] from fuzzy segments?
Yes.
Actually, the video gives an incorrect impression of OmT's fuzzy matching capabilities and functionality because the Fuzzy Match pane is minimised. The default work flow is that OmT does not insert fuzzy matches automatically but the top 5 matches are displayed in that pane. When you select such a match and have it inserted into the target field, it does not contain the word [Fuzzy]. The mechanism that adds the word [Fuzzy] is therefore actually a feature to prevent one from confusing a 100% auto-propagated match with a non-100% fuzzy match.
How do you know what has changed from the previous translation to the current translation?
This information is displayed (in colour coding that marks the specific differences) in the Fuzzy Match pane, which was minimised in this video demonstration. The reason I minimised it was because I wanted to reduce the amount of "stuff" on the video so that the user can focus on the things I want to focus on. Normally you'd use OmT with the Fuzzy Match pane fully visible.
When you want to review the newly translated or changed parts, how can you go to them directly?
Ctrl+U takes you to the next untranslated segment.
OmT has no feature to mark segments or move to segments in a document that were changed since date X. Does Trados have such a feature? The only feature within OmT that may be useful for you is the history function (not to be confused with undo/redo).
[Added: come to think of it, the history feature won't help you, because the moment you edit a segment, the history changes from that point onwards.]
OmT's TMX file is so simple that it does not even contain time stamps, so that won't help you either.
Can you spellcheck in OmegaT before making the translated document?
I did not enable spell-checking for the video, but OmT does have spell-checking.
OmT works with Hunspell spelling dictionaries. It underlines incorrectly spelt words in real time. Right-clicking a misspelt word brings up a list of suggested spellings. OmT has no interactive spell-checking feature (one that you'd perform afterwards on the entire document, with suggestions in a cute little box), though.
What do you have to do in OmegaT if your customer replaces the file in the middle of the project, as it frequently happens? Can you simply delete the half-translated file from the project, add the new file and retranslate?
In OmT, there is no half-translated file. To answer your question, though: simply replace the old version with the new version, press F5, and continue as if nothing happened. Segments that were changed will be displayed in OmT as untranslated (but you'll get fuzzy matches if the changes were slight).
You can edit and even replace the source files in the /source/ folder at any time -- in fact, I recommend keeping the source file open in OpenOffice so that you can make changes to pieces of text that cause missegmentation or that have been poorly formatted in the source text.
Does OmegaT have memory maintenance functions, to allow you to look for and change something directly in the memory without having to reopen the source files?
OmT has no TM editor, but I don't quite understand the scenario that you're trying to describe. OmT's project TM is a TMX 1.1 file which you can edit in any UTF8-aware text editor or any TMX editor that supports TMX 1.1. OmT's reference TMs are all in TMX (1.1 or 1.4, depending where you got them) which you can also edit if you want.
If you edit a reference TM (those in the /tm/ folder) while OmT is open, your changes will not be seen by OmT until you hit F5. If you edit the project TM (the one in the /omegat/ folder called project_save.tmx) while OmT is open, your changes will be overwritten by OmT (so if you want to edit it directly, close the project in OmT first).
So if your question is that a client suddenly decides that X should be translated Y, you can use find/replace in any XML editor, TMX editor or UTF8-aware text editor (with or without BOM-ification) on all your old TMs to make that change (just make sure you don't alter the source text parts (or if you do, just remember that you'll be creating some fuzzy matches if you reuse them)).
[Edited at 2009-04-07 11:09 GMT]
| | | | esperantisto
Local time: 09:37
Member (2006)
English to Russian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Some more answers :) | Apr 7, 2009 |
I meant finding the new/changed translated segments for the review, after the translation. Is this still possible?
I’m not quite sure, I understand you. In OmegaT, translated is translated. As Samuel pointed, there is no way to mark segments as interim, unconfirmed etc.
Then, can you create separate memories you can combine, import or export at will? Does the memory belong to the "project" instead (for instance, can you create an on-going "project" meaning a customer who sends you documents continuously, and keep updating that project's memory)?
There can be different approaches. Remember, OmegaT has one working TM for a particular projects and can use a number of reference TMs (limited to memory available to OmegaT/Java). Thus, you can:
a) simply update the contents of /source. In this case, if a new file contains segment identical to being already in the memory, they are translated immediately. The working TM (project_save.tmx) will store all translated segments from all documents that are or were present in /source. Unlike project_save.tmx, the final TMs, created when you create target documents, will contain only translated segments from documents currently being in /source.
b) put some TM files into /tm of a project. In this case, even identical segments will be considered as 100% fuzzy matched, inserted automatically, but with the fuzzy prefix;
c) change the destination directory for reference TMs from /tm to any other directory, such as your TM repository, works like b).
[Edited at 2009-04-07 11:20 GMT]
| | | | | Changing segments without opening translatables | Apr 7, 2009 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
OmT has no TM editor, but I don't quite understand the scenario that you're trying to describe. OmT's project TM is a TMX 1.1 file which you can edit in any UTF8-aware text editor or any TMX editor that supports TMX 1.1. OmT's reference TMs are all in TMX (1.1 or 1.4, depending where you got them) which you can also edit if you want.
I mean a situation like this: you have translated 20 documents at different times of the year for a customer, and have always used "neighbor". They suddenly decide that they want "neighbour". I reckon that in OmegaT you open the TMX file and do a search and replace?
And I repeat my question in the replies to esperantisto: How do you manage your memories? Can you have a central memory you can use for different projects, or is it assumed that each "project" has its own memory? In this second case, do you A) consider each customer or end customer a "project" or B) combine memories from time to time into one single memory (and how)?
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 08:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Answers to Tomás II | Apr 7, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I meant finding the new/changed translated segments for the review, after the translation. Is this still possible?
No, there is no feature within OmT that would make that possible.
However, if you're a geek, you can do it You can compare the old version of the new version of the TM in a DIFF program, like WinMerge or using your word processor's document comparison feature, edit the new TM, and use that new TM as a temporary project's "main" TM to recreate the corrected translated file. Hackish, but if you need to do this every week, to a file of 10 000 words... well... it may be worth the trouble.
Remember:
* When you press Ctrl+D, it not only creates the translated file, it also exports a TM that contains only segments from the current source file.
* The project's main TM (used for creating the translated file) is /omegat/project_save.tmx. Other TMs, such as old TMs from that client's previous projects, from which you'd like fuzzy matches, go into the /tm/ folder.
What you'd do, then, is this: Every week, create a new project and rename the previous week's exported (and corrected) TM to this week's /omegat/project_save.tmx. Keep a copy of that old TM separately. All other previous weeks' exported/corrected TMs go into the /tm/ folder as reference TMs, in case your client decides to bring back sentences he deleted on a previous occasion. When you're done with this week's translation, press Ctrl+D. Then compare the newest exported TM with the previous week's old TM (the one you kept separately), in a DIFF program. Make corrections to the new TM, and then (after closing OmT first) replace the project's /omegat/project_save.tmx with it, renamed accordingly. Then reopen the project and recreate the corrected file using Ctrl+D again. OmT then exports a TM again (superfluous, really), which you then use next week as the initial project_save.tmx mentioned at the start of this procedure.
Then, can you create separate memories you can combine, import or export at will? Does the memory belong to the "project" instead (for instance, can you create an on-going "project" meaning a customer who sends you documents continuously, and keep updating that project's memory)?
There are three classes of TMs in OmT:
* /omegat/project_save.tmx -- this is the main TM from which OmT draws 100% matches directly, automatically. If you edit this file (while OmT is closed), and then press Ctrl+D in OmT, your changes are effected in the translated file immediately. OmT will also serve fuzzy matches from this TM, if any.
* TMs in /tm/ -- these are TMs you add to that folder if you want OmT to get fuzzy matches from. In OmT-speak, they are called reference TMs or legacy TMs. If you do a search (Ctrl+F), these TMs can also be included in the search. Even if OmT finds a 100% match from these TMs, it does not automatically go into the translation (or it has that [Fuzzy] marker) -- the user has to select it specifically on a segment by segment basis.
* TMs in the project root folder -- these TMs are exported when you press Ctrl+D. There are three TMs exported thusly, each for compatibility with certain other CAT tools. One of the exported TMs is specifically an OmT TM with OmT tags in it, and you can replace the project_save.tmx with this TM and OmT will recognise the segments and formatting tags perfectly.
You can reuse the same project folders over and over, and your project_save.tmx will just grow and grow. Or you can create a new project every time and simply use the exported TM either as the project_save.tmx (for automatic propagation) or as one of the refererence TMs (for fuzzy matches).
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 08:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Answers to Tomás III | Apr 7, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I mean a situation like this: you have translated 20 documents at different times of the year for a customer, and have always used "neighbor". They suddenly decide that they want "neighbour". I reckon that in OmegaT you open the TMX file and do a search and replace?
Yes. Open the TMX file in a text editor, XML editor or TMX editor, and do find/replace. Then Ctrl+D to recreate whichever old documents the client asked you make the changes in
Can you have a central memory you can use for different projects, or is it assumed that each "project" has its own memory?
By default, each project has its own main TM. If you want to store all your old TMs (the reference TMs, from which fuzzy matches are drawn) in one single location, you can do it. When you create a new project in OmT, click the "Browse" button in the project properties dialog and navigate to your chosen TM folder.
By default, the /tm/ folder is inside the project folder set, but it doesn't have to be. It can be anywhere on your hard drive. Just select it when you create each new project. So it's possible to have a several projects using the same /tm/ folder, or the same /glossary/ folder, etc.
This applies only to reference TMs, though. The project's main TM is always inside the project folder set, in the /omegat/ subfolder, and is always named project_save.tmx. Autopropagation is only done from the main TM (and autopropagation is what you're looking for when you get an updated 10 000 word file every week).
...do you A) consider each customer or end customer a "project" or B) combine memories from time to time into one single memory (and how)?
Not specifically answering your question but perhaps giving some background:
* You can have any number of old TMs in the /tm/ folder -- no need to merge them. But OmT won't auto-insert matches from those TMs, even if they are 100% matches.
* There can only be one main TM per project, i.e. the /omega/project_save.tmx TM, from which 100% matches are automatically inserted. So if you want to leverage segments from several TMs in a way that auto-inserts the translations, you'd have to merge those TMs into a single project_save.tmx, yes.
And you merge them using a TMX editor, which is not supplied with OmT. You can merge them using Notepad as well, but you'll have to strip the TMX headers and footers from each file first. Or you can use the TMXmerge program supplied here: http://www.omegat.org/en/resources.html (it is a commandline tool... type "java -jar thejarfile.jar" in the command prompt for help).
| | | | | Thanks a lot guys! | Apr 7, 2009 |
I sincerely thank you for all the information. To be totally honest with you, to me all the thing about different memories, one memory per project, etc. etc. sounds a bit too tricky for me and for our case here in the office. We work for half a dozen customers every day and deliver some 10 jobs daily for which we need to use different memories. Add a 3-people team to it and we really need to keep things very simple indeed (in fact, we only keep one memory per customer/end customer and don't have... See more I sincerely thank you for all the information. To be totally honest with you, to me all the thing about different memories, one memory per project, etc. etc. sounds a bit too tricky for me and for our case here in the office. We work for half a dozen customers every day and deliver some 10 jobs daily for which we need to use different memories. Add a 3-people team to it and we really need to keep things very simple indeed (in fact, we only keep one memory per customer/end customer and don't have "project memories").
I am sure that, with some thinking, you can create an OmegaT memory structure that could serve our purposes, but for us two things must be really simple:
1. Being able to look for new/edited segments in big documents at the review stage, as we would not review (neither are we expected to review) full documents that only had little pieces changed. This happens some 7-8 times a week in our case.
2. Being able to insert tags in reused translations with a simple press of a button, instead of having to type or copy/paste tags, as we face this situation every day and need to add tags, replace tags from previous translations with tags that have changed, move tags around as our text changes... and we are talking many tags!
Also I must say that OmegaT's interface looks a bit odd as mechanicals are really critical in our case and we cannot afford to see spaces hat do not exist (as the spaces that appear before and after the place where you type your translation). We would feel uncertain as to whether the space should be there or not... Also the need to see this "[Fuzzy]" mark all the time (yes, even if you can use something else) looks completely unnecessary and cumbersome. I would scrap that immediately if I was in he OmegaT team...
All in all, I think Trados matches our requirements better, to be honest... I wanted to know more about OmegaT nevertheless, and I thank you for all the details. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 08:37
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Some more answers, and questions | Apr 7, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
I sincerely thank you for all the information. To be totally honest with you, to me all the thing about different memories, one memory per project, etc. etc. sounds a bit too tricky for me and for our case here in the office.
You can have one project per customer and simply reuse the /source/ folder over and over. And using the /tm/ folder is optional -- only if you do have additional memories. I hardly ever use it. But then, I don't use OmT often.
1. Being able to look for new/edited segments in big documents at the review stage...
You certainly did pique my interest. But tell me, can Trados do this? And how flexible is Trados in you being able to sepecify which segments qualify as old and which as new (i.e. do you specify a certain date/time beyond which all segments are regarded as old segments)? Which keyboard shortcut do you use to jump to the next to-be-reviewed segment (I'm assuming this is TagEditor we're talking about)?
...mechanicals are really critical in our case and we cannot afford to see spaces hat do not exist (as the spaces that appear before and after the place where you type your translation).
It looks like a space in the target field, yes, but you can't move your cursor into that space. But I hear what you're saying -- I also find it annoying if translation software fails to make such things clear enough for users.
FWIW, the space in OmT is not visible in the source field. If your file contains leading and trailing spaces at the start or end of a paragraph, OmT does not include those spaces in the segment. If a file contains multiple spaces between words or sentences in the middle of a paragraph, well, you can see what happens in the video -- the spaces are marked.
Also the need to see this "[Fuzzy]" mark all the time (yes, even if you can use something else) looks completely unnecessary and cumbersome. I would scrap that immediately if I was in he OmegaT team...
I'm not fond of it either. The solution would be to have coloured backgrounds, like Wordfast has (and Trados if you don't use TagEditor). Either way, there must be some way to warn the user that an inserted match is not a 100% match. I would also like to see some way of marking a segment as "ready to be added to the TM and served as a match elsewhere" or not.
| | | | | Looking for edited/new segments | Apr 7, 2009 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
You certainly did pique my interest. But tell me, can Trados do this? And how flexible is Trados in you being able to sepecify which segments qualify as old and which as new (i.e. do you specify a certain date/time beyond which all segments are regarded as old segments)? Which keyboard shortcut do you use to jump to the next to-be-reviewed segment (I'm assuming this is TagEditor we're talking about)?
Yes, you have this option in Trados' menu (both in Word and in TagEditor): Set Close Next no 100% Open Get (i.e. save the current segment in the memory, close it, go to the next segment under a 100% match, and open it for editing). It takes you directly to the next segment that was translated in the current file, and thus allows you to edit only the changed parts.
This of course is not perfect: If some sentence appears repeated in the file, it will have a 100% match in all instances after the first one, as it exists in the memory after the first time you translate it. So if you use this "Set Close Next no 100%" thing, you'd skip these repeated sentences. So you have to think of ways of marking new/changed segments. We do that by adding a mark we remove at editing stage, and macros to jump to segments containing that mark.
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