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what else to do with hate-mailers?
Thread poster: murat karahan

murat karahan  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 23:53
English to Turkish
+ ...
May 18, 2003

What is there left to do if a constant hate mailer and violator of nearly all forum rules gets away for the second time with just a slap on her hand? She\'s not allowed to send mails through profiles any more, again.

What\'s left to do if the same person reacts to disagrees like an el toro seeing only the red of the peer grade and not the explanations provided why the suggestion is wrong and keeps doing this for months?

Who should you turn to when a person who sends mails through proz profiles and in the forum with phrases like \"You\'re complexive./ You don\'t have enough work, that\'s why you mess with other people./Don\'t give me bullshit/nonsense./ Who the hell are you?!\" and says I will continue to do as long as I wish? What if she has made a habit of it and many people have been privileged by her mails?

I\'d really like to know what to do in such a situation. Ignoring is not an option, I don\'t do it in the real world and don\'t intend to do it in the virtual realm. Trying to bring her to her senses has been a fruitless effort. In short, all I\'m asking is; what could/should I do?





[ This Message was edited byn2003-05-19 06:38]

[ This Message was edited by:on2003-05-19 06:38]


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Mary Worby  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:53
Member
German to English
+ ...
Contact the moderator May 19, 2003

If you are having this sort of problem with a member of the site, you should contact the moderator for the language pair in question. If possible, include the text of any messages you have received.



If this person has been banned from sending e-mails through the site, and is sending hate-mails through private e-mail addresses, it may be difficult for ProZ.com to do anything, but it should be possible to block the sender through your e-mail system.



Regards



Mary


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Magda Dziadosz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 22:53
Member (2004)
English to Polish
+ ...
Moderators May 19, 2003

Hi Murat,

the right thing to do in such case is to contact the moderator of the language pair this person is active in with all details, links to offensive comments on the site and info about any hate mails. The moderators have technical means to prevent abuse of the site.



Best,

Magda

(PL Mod)


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murat karahan  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 23:53
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Please note, what else..... May 19, 2003

As I said, I\'ve contacted the moderator, she can\'t send out e-mails any longer through profile pages. What I\'m asking is what is there to do if she\'s doing the same over and over again?

And I don\'t find it difficult at all to classify emails with direct remarks on personality, drawing similarities between the seal in the picture and my personality... Let it be personal attacks then, as if it makes it a petty offence.

E-mails are not my major concern, I\'ve had more than enough of seeing all etiquette rules breached over and over again. Well if you suggest me to ignore them, thanks, you go ahead, but I won\'t. As you can see this is not a past debate but it isn\'t a vendetta either. But what bothers me the most is that some members were banned from proz completely upon sending much less disturbing comments yet she enjoys a freedom which I haven\'t wittnessed in other forums. Are some members more equal?

Again, I\'m asking what to do after contacting moderators yet seeing that she\'s just being banned again from sending e-mails.





2003-05-19 06:57 1964 wrote:



By a Moderator she is temporarily banned from sending e-mails ,Murat\'s mails belong to some past debates between them.

It is very difficult to classify all of them exactly as hate mails,but they are certainly disturbing.



[ This Message was edited byn2003-05-19 06:58]



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kbamert  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:53
French to German
+ ...
hello May 19, 2003

What about taking action before a court?



Regards,



Kurt


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murat karahan  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 23:53
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Let's draw a line here May 19, 2003

There should be a clear distinction between criticising actions and making remarks about personality. Is such a reaction against criticism being justified here? Well, excuse me but the name of the site should be enough by itself to suggest that this is a site for professionals, leaving no space for \"childish\" remarks or whatsoever.

I do not wish to extend issues which are currently discussed in the Turkish forum to other threads. My only concern is to find out what else I could do against such actions which prevent me from enjoying proz fully. I consider the e-mail ban just a slap on the hand, you may not. So I\'m trying to find other ways to confront this issue, do you mind?

P.S. a more appropriate translation should be as follows

If only your personality were as perfect as your translations skills, it\'s just the opposite...

Another question, is there a time span for this ban, because I clearly remember her being banned from sending mails through proz profiles?





2003-05-19 08:25 1964 wrote:



Murat such a phrase may be really taken as personal: \"I wish your personality were as good as your mastery in translation, but not so.\" Is it a praise to your translation skills or reaction to your critics to her(on Forums discussions)?

Or it may be translated in a few other ways.

For that mail which leads to banning of her from sending mails is enough action by a modarator, IMHO. There were some ongoing discussions between you and her,in which some others took part.What is more, You may see other personal attacks (on me and others by \"other\" persons) heavier than these innocent or childish words.So it is not only you. But I am sure they will be cared one by one considering each case sepeartely.









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Marijke Singer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:53
Dutch to English
+ ...
Hate mail May 19, 2003

I suppose you could just stop disagreeing with her even if you do. At least the hate mail will stop and you don\'t waste your time.



This might sound a negative solution but I think it will work.


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 22:53
English to German
+ ...
Multi-level approach May 19, 2003

Murat,

Blocking a member\'s access to site functions is certainly more than just a \"slap on the hand\"; note there is no pre-set time limit (unless such a ban is expressly implemented as a temporary measure, which I don\'t believe to be the case here).



If you continue to receive hate mails from the member concerned, forward them to the moderators (just taking your word for it isn\'t enough, I\'m afraid). Personal attacks are a clear violation of site rules, on or off site (bearing in mind that off-site breaches are somewhat more difficult to grasp for ProZ.com).



In setting sanctions against breaches of site rules, moderators need to exercise a certain amount of judgement and discretion - it is simply impossible (and ineffective) to try and cover each eventuality by a rule. Please bear in mind that we almost always have to strike a compromise, and generally attempt to convince members in breach of rules to change their behaviour rather than kicking them out immediately. In the majority of cases, this investment of time and efforts pays off - sometimes, it doesn\'t. You refer to cases where members\' profiles were taken off the site: in most cases, this was not the result of a one-off event, but a culmination of offences.



May I add that I disagree with Marijke\'s view: a genuine \"disagree\" comment should be stated as such - with a courteous explanation why one disagrees.


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Jeremy Smith  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:53
French to English
+ ...
e-mail block May 19, 2003

While I think you should pursue this with Proz staff if the e-mails really are abusive, perhaps you could act by blocking messages coming into your e-mail box from that particular sender. Most, if not all, ISPs allow this function. If you do this, the hate-mailer can write as much nonsense as they like, but their messages will never reach you.

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murat karahan  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 23:53
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Ralf, but.... May 19, 2003

Ok, banning member\'s access could be more than a slap but... Such remarks are not confined only to e-mails, it would take me less than a second to delete such mails. Similar remarks have been made while answering peer grades, especially the red ones. And paralell comments also appeared in the forums. This has been an issue for over 4-5 month now and my reaction (I know I act a little enraged which I certainly am) comes not from a single e-mail. In short, this is not an isolated instance. And I\'m not the only recipient of such mails, remarks, comments. I remember at least 12 instances.

Marijke, your suggestion is not an option since this is not limited to mails and why should anyone keep me from enjoying the site? By the way I don\'t peer grade her suggestions for over a long time and that\'s the case with many colleagues in my language pair. The last mail came to happen after I gave a positive peer grade to another colleague who said that she didn\'t want to receive sarcastic mails from that person and I said welcome to the club.



Quote:


2003-05-19 09:23 Lemster wrote:



Murat,

Blocking a member\'s access to site functions is certainly more than just a \"slap on the hand\"; note there is no pre-set time limit (unless such a ban is expressly implemented as a temporary measure, which I don\'t believe to be the case here).



If you continue to receive hate mails from the member concerned, forward them to the moderators (just taking your word for it isn\'t enough, I\'m afraid). Personal attacks are a clear violation of site rules, on or off site (bearing in mind that off-site breaches are somewhat more difficult to grasp for ProZ.com).



In setting sanctions against breaches of site rules, moderators need to exercise a certain amount of judgement and discretion - it is simply impossible (and ineffective) to try and cover each eventuality by a rule. Please bear in mind that we almost always have to strike a compromise, and generally attempt to convince members in breach of rules to change their behaviour rather than kicking them out immediately. In the majority of cases, this investment of time and efforts pays off - sometimes, it doesn\'t. You refer to cases where members\' profiles were taken off the site: in most cases, this was not the result of a one-off event, but a culmination of offences.



May I add that I disagree with Marijke\'s view: a genuine \"disagree\" comment should be stated as such - with a courteous explanation why one disagrees.



[ This Message was edited by:on2003-05-19 10:28]

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murat karahan  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 23:53
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
:)) May 19, 2003

Thanks Kurt

LOL. I wish it were that easy. The civil code of Turkey was based on Swiss laws but I can\'t say that it is updated often so I guess I\'d have to first hire a set of lawyers to lay the foundations of legal actions in courts against such mails )





2003-05-19 07:49 kbamert wrote:



What about taking action before a court?



Regards,



Kurt



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murat karahan  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 23:53
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks to all for your suggestions May 20, 2003

Especially to you Ralph, I mean it Your sentence (just taking your word for it isn\'t enough, I\'m afraid) gives me enough clues to plan what to do next. I\'ll make a list of the things that are clear violations of site rules and then forward them to the site staff, incl. shortcuts. I\'m way over 50 individual instances now, hope this will do it.

Murat Karahan


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murat karahan  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 23:53
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Hey, I did it, I'm the culprit :)) May 20, 2003

As I said Tayfun, do you mind? Please look at your own post dated 24th of April where you say that hatemail is a violation of ProZ.com rules. That comment comes right after I sent her previous mail dated 23rd to the forum,

(http://www.proz.com/topic/10383?start=15)

where she \"flatters\" me by saying \"you look just like the animal in the picture but I wouldn\'t like to insult the animal...\"

I don\'t want to repeat myself but I asked you not to carry this issue to this topic since it is already being discussed in another forum. This is not a single case of the same person and by opening this topic I was trying to find out what I could do and I told what I\'m going to do. I guess I don\'t have to ask permission to do this. One thing that bothers me is that 19 posts were made in that particular topic, 6 of them belong to you and I can\'t see her providing any explanations leave out any sort of apologies, but she keeps on posting to the forum and you nearly blame others for her \"misbehaviour\" or \"childish\" action.

So if you want to defend or reason her actions please do it in the other topic, but please be as clear as you are here.

I\'ve made my point, I got the information I needed through private e-mails (thanks to you all folks), got to know nice people for a change and told what I\'m planning to do next. So, Henry, could we please lock this topic? There\'s no need to discuss the same thing in two different topics and I see that things are moving towards that.

P.S. Tayfun, let\'s assume that your translation is more \"correct\", is anyone here at ProZ.com privileged enough to compare my personality with anything?!!





[Edited at 2003-05-20 21:07]


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murat karahan  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 23:53
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
:)) Murat the "harasser" May 21, 2003

I\'m the harrasser

with intentions lesser,

than the person in question

causing friction

throughout the site

and I have no right

even to argue

or showing discontent long overdue,

I mean it, you\'ve lost the clue.

I want peace at proz

So I\'m writing you in prose

In hope that you understand better,

nope, this isn\'t about a single letter

Nor is it about a \"past\" debate

I lose it when I see comments made with hate

So be it, I rest my case here

Oh, I\'m the \"harasser\", hear hear!!!



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murat karahan  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 23:53
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
We don't need no education May 21, 2003

Tear down the school

Tear down the school



I like splits, they taste so cool

and banana is my favorite flavor.

Please do me a favor

I don\'t want this to go on forever

Don\'t start about school or whatsoever

I\'m really in a haste

and I feel it\'s a waste

Trying to reasoning with you,

No way sir, no can do.

Seems like you failed in your moderation

Which was indeed against collective notion.

Your attempts are clearly one sided

You should be a little more open minded

It was very brave to take on this sisyphean task

I hope you don\'t mind if I ask

Why you didn\'t send me any e-mails?

And speaking of authority

Where art thou Henry?!!!













[Edited at 2003-05-21 09:07]


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