Profile and eligibility for prizes
Thread poster: Nadia-Anastasia Fahmi

Nadia-Anastasia Fahmi  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 22:42
English to Greek
+ ...
Dec 27, 2006

I recently completed my profile with all required and encouraged sections.

Today, I received an e-mail from a ProZ staff members asking me to complete my profile to become eligible for the prizes to be drawn within the next few days.

I was quite surprised to read this since my profile is now complete. When I checked, I was quite astonished to see my "WWA" section as incomplete, although I have an entry from an outsourcer listed in the Blue Board.

Checking the FAQs for answers prior to posting a support request, I came upon this "gem" (talking of a catch 22.. this tops it all):

"One of the requisites to have your profile complete is to have an WWA entry from an outsourcer in the Blue Board. But, it is also necessary that that outsourcer already has another entrance from another freelancer or outsourcer other than you. If In your particular case the outsourcer that has made you entry does not have an entry from another person, the Quick Profile Updater will still show that 'warning triangle' meaning WWA is not complete."

However, I consider this unfair and arbitrary. Why should we be "punished" if other colleagues have not requested an entry from an outsourcer or if this outsourcer has not made an entry for another freelancer?

I would love to hear what other members have to say about this.

Happy New Year to all!!



[Edited at 2006-12-27 10:01]


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 15:42
SITE FOUNDER
I don't see any WWA entry at all... Dec 27, 2006

I don't see any WWA entry at all in your profile, Nadia. Did you obtain one and then remove it?

As for the requirement related to WWA entries, I think you may have misinterpreted. What is required is that an entry has been made for the outsourcer by another member. The requirement that an outsourcer should have received a form of 'validation' from another site user is intended to prevent misuse of the WWA system.

I have edited the FAQ to make this clearer.


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Nadia-Anastasia Fahmi  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 22:42
English to Greek
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Entered Projects Dec 27, 2006

Hello Henry and thank you for your prompt reply.

My profile very clearly states:

6 projects entered 1 positive feedback from outsourcers 2 positive feedback from colleagues

The outsourcer is listed in the Blue Board (http://www.proz.com/blueboard/xxx) with 10 entries from other site users, as well as the relevant correspondence with the outsourcer attached to my support ticket.

Moreover, section 15 states:

"For this section to be considered complete, obtain at least one WWA (willingness to work again) entry from an outsourcer listed in the Blue Board (About WWA).

Your WWA entry will not count for this section if the outsourcer is not in the Blue Board".

I believe, this WWA entry in profile meets both the above requirements, and unless I have misunderstood again, could you please clarify "What is required is that an entry has been made for the outsourcer by another member." Does this mean that the outsourcer should have BB entries from other site users or that another site user should have have requested a WWA entry from this outsourcer and that their request was met?

Because, in the first case, the outsourcer has an adequate number of entries in the BB; and in the second case, I again ask you "is it fair that I be punished because no other site user has requested a WWA entry from this outsourcer, or if this outsourcer has not made such an entry for another site user?". This is a valued client of mine with whom I've working for over 3 years. Furthermore, I've been a member of ProZ since 2002 (and a Platinum member since 2004) and I truly resent the expression "misuse of the WWA system" where I am concerned.

From what you can see from my profile, I have sent out 4 more WWA requests and subsequent reminders. Hopefully, at some point they will be answered. I value my ProZ membership and I am an active member and a staunch supporter of this site and I believe that I should be treated as such.

Thank you once again for your clarifications.

Happy New Year!


[Edited at 2006-12-28 16:44]

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2006-12-29 00:54]


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Monica Tuduce  Identity Verified
Luxembourg
Local time: 21:42
Member
Italian to Romanian
+ ...
To WWA or not to WWA? Dec 27, 2006

In my opinion, this criteria is very subjective, but I will not discuss on this matter, because there was a long thread on this forum.

My situation is: I sent 2 WWA requests and received no answer, from agencies listed on the BB and with many entries from other users of this site. Maybe the lack of time could be a cause, or maybe they do not agree either with this section of profiles. The cause is not important here. The important fact is that a subjective section will influence our eligibility, and many of us, we are paying members of this site.

Then, a client of mine, which is a direct client, not an agency, made an entry for me on the WWA.
He doesn't have other entries, because he is a direct client of mine (and I work for them since 2004) and there are no other users who work with him.
But, he can not be considered for this, which I think is an abuse.
And my profile is considered not complete and I am not eligible for the competition.

Good luck to all users that are eligible.

Happy New Year !


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Nadia-Anastasia Fahmi  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 22:42
English to Greek
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I could not agree more... Dec 27, 2006

with you Monica. This option is very subjective and should not be taken into consideration for eligibility in any offer / prize etc.

I really don't care whether I win a trip to Budapest (been there already twice on my own), or a laptop (I just bought a brand new one with tons of paraphernalia and extras) or SDL Trados software (of which I already own the latest version).

I also have a number of direct clients who would be more than happy to oblige with WWA entries, but these cannot be taken into consideration and I agree with you that this is - I would not say an abuse, it is too harsh a word - but an unfair criterion, especially if we have entered projects and the clients have corroborated them.

What really bothers me as a paying member of this site, is the unfairness of it all.

I too extend my wishes to all eligible users!!


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Özden Arıkan  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 21:42
Member
English to Turkish
Clarifications Dec 28, 2006

Dear Nadia,

First of all, please note that I have moved your thread to the forum 'Proz.com: Translator Coop' from 'Off-Topic' and also marked it as on topic, because it is a topic related to a site feature.

Also, I'd kindly ask you to take out the outsourcer name and the Blue Board link from your de-vetted posting. I have just sent you the text of the related rule, which forbids explicit discussion of outsourcers in the forums, be it in a positive or negative way:
http://www.proz.com/siterules/forum/8#8


As for the subject matter of this discussion, I'd like to clarify a confusion: the feature required for eligibility is WWA, as you correctly pointed. As far as I can see on your profile you use this feature, but there are no entries from outsourcers, yet. The entries you refer to are in another profile feature, the Project History. (WWA is the small box at the top right corner of your profile; and the shortest way to access your Project History -as far as I know- is My Proz.com / My Project History in the above menu.)

Hope this clarifies the issue.

Best regards,
Özden



[Edited at 2006-12-28 12:11]


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Nadia-Anastasia Fahmi  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 22:42
English to Greek
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
No clarification needed for an inexistent confusion.. Dec 28, 2006

Dear Özden

Before posting the client's name and BB link, I requested their permission.

I am an old member of this site and know very well all the rules and abide by them to the best of my ability. However, I will abide by any moderator's request, although I had the prior permission of the client to post their details.

Furthermore, by posting this topic, I did not seek a solution to my problem but to exchange views with my peers regarding the WWA and PH (with corroboration, which I think are the same thing, especially if a collaboration with a specific client is ongoing. I have submitted a support ticket and expect the solution from there and not here.

So, please don't try to clarify the obvious to me. My English is excellent as well as my eyesight. I can assure you that I understand what the WWA feature stands for and I can very well see where it is located in my profile.

The issue, as I already mentioned before, will be clarified and solved through my support ticket and not in this forum.

However, thank you very much for trying to assist me in a problem that has to be solved at another level. You can check the status of this problem through my support tickets.

Kind regards,
Nadia

[Edited at 2006-12-28 18:33]


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Maria Karra  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 15:42
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
To Nadia Dec 28, 2006

Nadia Fahmi wrote:
Before posting the clients name and BB link, I requested their permission.

I am an old member of this site and know very well all the rules and abide by them to the best of my ability. Sp sending me links to any rule is just a plain waste of time and effort. However, I will abide by any moderator's although I had the prior permission of the client to post their details.



Hi Nadia,
First of all, it's great that you got your client's permission before posting their name in this forum; however, there was no way a moderator could have known that, hence the reminder of the rule. Also, please note that you are not abiding by moderators but by the site's rules. We are simply there to make sure rules are respected (whether one has obtained the necessary permissions by clients or not).


Furthermore, by posting this topic, I did not seek a solution to my problem but to exchange views with my peers. I have submitted a support ticket and expect the solution from there and not here.


Öz is a moderator but she's also our peer, and as a peer reading your e-mail she got the impression that you had confused WWA and Project History, so she tried to clarify. I thought exactly the same when I read your original post, i.e. that you had confused WWA with Project History. I don't think your English skills (or anyone else's) are of relevance here, misunderstandings can happen regardless of one's language skills, and frankly I don't see why you felt that your English was questioned. When you talked about the six projects entered and those that were corroborated or had received client feedback, I thought of PH because that's how projects are labeled in that feature.

Nadia wrote:
My profile very clearly states:
6 projects entered 1 positive feedback from outsourcers 2 positive feedback from colleagues

Right, and I do see 6 projects in your Project History (not the WWA), 1 with client feedback and 2 corroborated ones.


So, please don't try to clarify the obvious to me. My English is excellent as well as my eyesight. I can assure you that I understand what the WWA feature stands for and I can very well see where it is located in my profile.

The issue, as I already mentioned before, will be clarified and solved through my support ticket and not in this forum.

However, thank you very much for trying to assist me in a problem that has to be solved at another level. You can check the status of this problem through my support tickets.


As a peer reading this exchange of posts I think that the above post (especially the tone) was uncalled for, considering that Öz was simply trying to help by clarifying something for you.

Now, you wrote that you entered a WWA entry but it's not showing up, so you entered a support ticket. I'm curious to find out why the entry isn't showing up, because I want to ask more clients of mine to enter feedback and I'd like to be sure that the feature works. Would you be so kind as to send me the number of your support ticket or simply let me know when the problem is fixed? I'd appreciate it.

You posted here to discuss the unfairness of the conditions of the competition, particularly regarding WWA, am I correct? If so, you may want to take a look at this thread: http://www.proz.com/topic/61718 (if you haven't already seen it).

Kind regards,
Maria


[Edited at 2006-12-28 17:42]


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Özden Arıkan  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 21:42
Member
English to Turkish
Further clarification Dec 28, 2006

Nadia,

First, I stand by my decision of devetting your posting, not only because I couldn't have known that you obtained permission from the outsourcer, but because we have to be consistent in abiding by the rules as users and enforcing them as moderators. What I mean is, we don't follow them out of respect for the rule, but for the community: with or without permission, your posting with the name and Blue Board link of an outsourcer was confusing for all users about rules enforcement and unfair against all users whose postings have so far been devetted or deleted or who have had to edit them in respect to this forum rule.

I have nothing but respect for you as a colleague and a fellow site user, and I neither implied anything about your capability of understanding nor your command of English, or your eyesight. So you don't need to prove them to me.

Here is your thread in a nutshell:

You say:
I was quite astonished to see my "WWA" section as incomplete, although I have an entry from an outsourcer listed in the Blue Board.


Henry says:
I don't see any WWA entry at all in your profile, Nadia.


You say:
My profile very clearly states:

6 projects entered 1 positive feedback from outsourcers 2 positive feedback from colleagues

The outsourcer is listed in the Blue Board (...) with 10 entries from other site users, as well as the relevant correspondence with the outsourcer attached to my support ticket.

Moreover, section 15 states:

"For this section to be considered complete, obtain at least one WWA (willingness to work again) entry from an outsourcer listed in the Blue Board (About WWA).

Your WWA entry will not count for this section if the outsourcer is not in the Blue Board".

I believe, this WWA entry in profile meets both the above requirements,


And when I check your profile I clearly see that your WWA shows 0 entries and the 6 projects you refer to are in the Project History section.

You also say that,
WWA and PH (with corroboration, which I think are the same thing...


which is not correct, i.e., they are not the same thing, as far as my site knowledge is concerned.



Hence I tried to help you out to the best of my capabilities, but clearly *my* capability of guessing a poster's intentions and foreseeing their reactions needs a lot of improvement, as do my English and eyesight.

Best regards,
Özden




[Edited at 2006-12-29 00:53]


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Nadia-Anastasia Fahmi  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 22:42
English to Greek
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Tesekürler... Dec 29, 2006

Merhaba Özden,

Özden Arıkan wrote:

First, I stand by my decision of devetting your posting, not only because I couldn't have known that you obtained permission from the outsourcer, but because we have to be consistent in abiding by the rules as users and enforcing them as moderators.



I could not agree more with you on every point, and I apologise for lashing at you (a moderator) for my frustration at not getting a helpfull reply from the staff re my support request. That was out of line.

Özden Arıkan wrote:

I have nothing but respect for you as a colleague and a fellow site user, and I neither implied anything about your capability of understanding nor your command of English, or your eyesight. So you don't need to prove them to me.



The same applies here. My wording could take some improvement

Özden Arıkan wrote:

And when I check your profile I clearly see that your WWA shows 0 entries and the 6 projects you refer to are in the Project History section.

You also say that,
WWA and PH (with corroboration, which I think are the same thing...


which is not correct, i.e., they are not the same thing, as far as my site knowledge is concerned.



And you are very right as far as anyone's site knowledge is concerned. Now I see that my post was not clear. What I wanted to say was that the WWA and PH corroboration are actually the same thing, especially if the project is entered as an ongoing collaboration and the client states they are happy to be working with you (hence the WWA). In my opinion, the WWA is superfluous or should at least be updated when any of the clients corroborating a project give a thumbs up to the freelancer. I, honestly, cannot see how they are not interlinked. And that was the crux of my posting.

Özden Arıkan wrote:

Hence I tried to help you out to the best of my capabilities, but clearly *my* capability of guessing a poster's intentions and foreseeing their reactions needs a lot of improvement, as do my English and eyesight.



Touché!, I deserved that and thank you for being so gracious to an ungracious fellow member. I honestly mean that!!

Happy New Year and all the best to you and your family!

Tesekürler, Özden, for your patience and lesson in good manners,
Nadia


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Özden Arıkan  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 21:42
Member
English to Turkish
Kalimera Nadia Dec 29, 2006

Thank you for your reply, and I am happy that the issue has been cleared - at least the one between us

Now, let us move on, I'd say, there are some champagne bottles and fireworks waiting for us just a day ahead!


Happy New Year, and eukaristos back


Özden


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Enrique Cavalitto
Local time: 17:42
SITE STAFF
Support provided Dec 29, 2006

Nadia Fahmi wrote:
Özden Arıkan wrote:

First, I stand by my decision of devetting your posting, not only because I couldn't have known that you obtained permission from the outsourcer, but because we have to be consistent in abiding by the rules as users and enforcing them as moderators.



I could not agree more with you on every point, and I apologise for lashing at you (a moderator) for my frustration at not getting a helpfull reply from the staff re my support request. That was out of line.


I am sorry that the staff reply to Nadia's request was not found helpful. We reported the objective fact that the profile had no WWA entry. Apparently there was a confusion between project history and WWA. We provided detailed guidance on how to complete this field.

Regards,
Enrique


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Nadia-Anastasia Fahmi  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 22:42
English to Greek
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Hopefully, the last post in this thread :-) Dec 29, 2006

Enrique wrote:

I am sorry that the staff reply to Nadia's request was not found helpful. We reported the objective fact that the profile had no WWA entry. Apparently there was a confusion between project history and WWA. We provided detailed guidance on how to complete this field.

Regards,
Enrique


Hola Enrique and muchos grazias for the input, although my post was not related to requesting any guidance. That was submitted (as mentioned above) in a support request. This post is connected to my support request in any way. I know how to request WWA entries and PH corroboration. It's the clients who get confused, because they think that both PH corroboration and WWA are the same thing, especially if the project entered is an ongoing project (as in this specific case).

I am very well aware that all moderators mean well and that this is a difficult job, which most of you all do to your best of your ability while exhibiting remarkable patience. I appreciate all the help given by you or any of the other moderators.

However, I wish to clarify once again. I am not confused between PH and WWA. I only state that WWA is really superfluous and too much to ask of our clients. If ProZ decides they want to keep both in our profiles, then a solution should be found that once an outsourcer (listed both under our PH or has WWA request in our profile) makes an entry in either section, that this entry be automatically entered in the other section as well. That's the point I was trying to make.

And to clarify another point. The staff did not give any reply, helpful or otherwise. Only kept posting various links to general replies and closing the ticket before making sure that I was satisfied with the "non-reply" (I am sorry to say). That's what make my very Mediterranean blood reach the boiling point.

¡Felíz año nuevo!
Nadia


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Nadia-Anastasia Fahmi  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 22:42
English to Greek
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I lied before ;-) Dec 29, 2006

Özden Arıkan wrote:

Thank you for your reply, and I am happy that the issue has been cleared - at least the one between us

Now, let us move on, I'd say, there are some champagne bottles and fireworks waiting for us just a day ahead!

Happy New Year, and eukaristos back

Özden


Thank you Özden for your graciousness!

I hope that 2007 will be one of the best years of your life so far.

All the best,
Nadia


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