Variants of Dutch or your own language
Thread poster: Gerard de Noord

Gerard de Noord  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 01:53
Member (2003)
German to Dutch
+ ...
Oct 19, 2016

To my dismay I just found out that support for language variants has changed. The possibility to specify one or more language variants in our profiles solved a delicate problem in the Dutch language pairs. Before, Belgians had to claim Flemish (sic) as their native target language to obtain jobs for their own Flemish market. Being Dutch speakers they also had to claim a second language, Dutch, to be considered for translations into Dutch.

This week I tried to point a very interesting client to a FR-FR into NL-BE translator on ProZ. I had no way to select NL-BE as a language variety. And I discovered that the whole idea of language variants somehow had silently vanished.

NL-NL and NL-BE are moving away from each other. The same or the contrary might be true for many other language variants. The possibility to declare one or more variants of a target language was very beneficial for the into Dutch language pairs. It also was very helpful for customers targeting Belgium or the Netherlands only.

There’s nothing wrong with language variants, let's have them back.

Cheers,
Gerard

[Edited at 2016-10-19 21:54 GMT]


 

Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:53
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
Het is laat .... Oct 19, 2016

.... dus even geen antwoord, maar wel een vraagteken. Waarom in het Engels? Lijkt mij een Nederlands onderwerp. Hence my answer in Dutch.

 

Gerard de Noord  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 01:53
Member (2003)
German to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Why in English? Oct 19, 2016

Because English has so many variants and into English translatos are affected too.

Cheers,
Gerard


 

Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:53
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
seems to work here Oct 19, 2016

Gerard de Noord wrote:

To my dismay I just found out that support for language variants has changed. The possibility to specify one or more language variants in our profiles solved a delicate problem in the Dutch language pairs. Before, Belgians had to claim Flemish (sic) as their native target language to obtain jobs for their own Flemish market. Being Dutch speakers they also had to claim a second language, Dutch, to be considered for translations into Dutch.

This week I tried to point a very interesting client to a FR-FR into NL-BE translator on ProZ. I had no way to select NL-BE as a language variety. And I discovered that the whole idea of language variants somehow had silently vanished.

NL-NL and NL-BE are moving away from each other. The same or the contrary might be true for many other language variants. The possibility to declare one or more variants of a target language was very beneficial for the into Dutch language pairs. It also was very helpful for customers targeting Belgium or the Netherlands only.

There’s nothing wrong with language variants, let's have them back.

Cheers,
Gerard

[Edited at 2016-10-19 21:54 GMT]


That's odd, I just tried to search for FR-FR > NL-BE translators, and it seems to still work. See e.g.: http://www.proz.com/translator-directory/?sp=directory&mode=filter&from=fra&to=.fl&type=na&skill_interpreting=Any&field=&distance=50&location=&latitude=&longitude=&country=&pair_emphasis=8&native=&cred=na&software=na&sdl_trados_cert_level=na&sdlx_cert_level=na&avail=na&expertise=working&keyword=&keyword_cv_checkbox=on&wwa=na&complete_profile=na&profile_last_updated=any&posted_wiwo_within_days=&search_form_action=y

I just selected:
Source language: French
Target language: Flemish

I do wish they'd merge the two "Dutches" in the term search interface though, as you always have to try both, just in case what your looking for is in the other one. It'd be much handier if you could search both Dutch and Flemish simultaneously @ http://www.proz.com/search/?es=1

Michael


 

philgoddard
United States
Member (2009)
German to English
+ ...
Why would you want them to be separate? Oct 19, 2016

If you're translating from Dutch to English like me, you're not really interested where the text comes from. And if you're working in the opposite direction, you can specify in your profile that you do one or both variants. Treating Dutch as two languages just makes life more complicated.

[Edited at 2016-10-19 22:26 GMT]


 

Merab Dekano  Identity Verified
Spain
Member (2014)
English to Spanish
+ ...
He translated into Dutch Oct 20, 2016

philgoddard wrote:

If you're translating from Dutch to English like me, you're not really interested where the text comes from. And if you're working in the opposite direction, you can specify in your profile that you do one or both variants. Treating Dutch as two languages just makes life more complicated.

[Edited at 2016-10-19 22:26 GMT]


He translates into Dutch. If you use the Dutch language that is spoken in the Netherlands in a leaflet that is going to be distributed in the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium, you will have customers making jokes, and vice versa.

On the other hand, there is no “Flemish” language as such, unless you consider different dialects as languages. Leuven and Hasselt are 50 – 60 kilometers away, but they speak their own dialects there. However, in both cities people can speak ‘standard Dutch’ that will be very different from the ‘standard Dutch’ spoken in the Netherlands (mostly, vocabulary and even the way the sentences are constructed). And the accent is very different, but that’s not affecting translation.

Long story short, the variants are important in Dutch, in Spanish and probably in just any other language, especially when you translate into those variants.


 

Kirsten Bodart  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 01:53
Dutch to English
+ ...
The problem in Dutch Oct 20, 2016

is compounded by the fact no-one really agrees on what 'Flemish' is exactly. You get clients asking for 'Dutch' when they're going for something to be used in the Flemish area of Belgium or both areas, you get people specifying Dutch for Belgium or Dutch for the Netherlands, then you get people asking explicitly for 'Flemish'. So how are clients supposed to look in the directory for a particular 'language (variant)'?

Most texts can use standard words and no-one will know the difference or they won't be annoyed by it (this should happen more). In places where there is a huge difference, you can request a particular language variant, provided everyone agrees what that variant is called.

I do things in 'Dutch' and I'm Belgian. I have only ever got tacit approval (for now). From Dutch proofreaders. Either they're crap or the distinction is hugely exaggerated.

As it is, we could also start doing regional variants (which exist as well). I'm sure LSPs could make millions out of that, if only they could convince their clients that written Spanish from Extremadura was different enough to that of Andalucia.


 

Merab Dekano  Identity Verified
Spain
Member (2014)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Variants Oct 20, 2016

Kirsten Bodart wrote:

As it is, we could also start doing regional variants (which exist as well). I'm sure LSPs could make millions out of that, if only they could convince their clients that written Spanish from Extremadura was different enough to that of Andalucia.



Not in case of Extremadura vs Andalucía, but take Canarias. You almost never use "vosotros" in Canary Islands. If you are to translate a promotional brochure targeting young part of the population and write something like: “Almacenes Cochimochi, no os lo perdáis…”, it would sound rude and the youngsters would think: “ahí va el godo de m….a” ese”.

Now, if what you are translating is an agreement, there is no difference (in most cases, not even with LATAM variants).

Differences are subtle, but our “métier” is subtle too, isn't it?


 

Gerard de Noord  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 01:53
Member (2003)
German to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Good move, ProZ Oct 20, 2016

Good move, Proz,

Language variants seem to be of no importance to the members, so why complicate things.

Cheers,
Gerard

Gerard Reve: "Vlaams is meer zoals je het uitspreekt."


 

Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:53
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
Dutch too..... Oct 20, 2016

Gerard de Noord wrote:

Good move, Proz,

Language variants seem to be of no importance to the members, so why complicate things.

Cheers,
Gerard

Gerard Reve: "Vlaams is meer zoals je het uitspreekt."


.... Referring to "Vlaams is meer zoals je het uitspreekt" ( Flemish is more how you pronounce it). There are many regional differences in Holland. Some dialects are abracadabra to me.

In which we differ with the Flemish is A) we claim (they don't) to have 'ABN' = more or less official Dutch, and B) we have the arrogance that we speak 'real' Dutch, while in the meantime the Flemish are winning (almost) all Dutch language contests. You tell me.

So, what is proper Dutch? The same question goes for many other languages. When I am in Belgium, everybody understands me, while I (sometimes) really have to do my best to understand them. So the question here is: which 'dialect' (or language) is most understood and why this forum? Still an enigma to me.

[Edited at 2016-10-20 23:18 GMT]

[Edited at 2016-10-20 23:18 GMT]

[Edited at 2016-10-21 21:28 GMT]


 

Philippe Etienne  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 01:53
Member
English to French
It's an "into-variant" issue Oct 21, 2016

Merab Dekano wrote:
the variants are important in Dutch, in Spanish and probably in just any other language, especially when you translate into those variants.

To look for translators translating into a language variant, I find that making a difference between Dutch/Flemish, or in my case French French/Belgian French/Canadian French/Swiss French/etc., is important, since I wouldn't know how to translate into Belgian French or Canadian French to make it sound local, mostly because I don't know how minor the differences.

But I don't really mind how an English source is written, because I understand Australian English, British English, American English, etc. well enough to be able to translate into MY French.
Just like I understand well enough Belgian French, Canadian French...

So language variants may be of no importance to "from-variant" translators, but actually are to "into-variant" translators.

Philippe


 


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