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Companies appearing in the freelancer directory - possible discrimination against freelancers?
Thread poster: Vesna Zivcic

Deborah do Carmo  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 01:56
Dutch to English
+ ...
Solution to this particular issue is easy enough ..... Feb 18, 2007

Jerzy Czopik wrote:

So start complaining if you have ideas how to make things better.

Regards
Jerzy


...... simply remove all reference to companies in the freelancer directory.

With all due respect, this has been proposed from the outset of this posting.

I don't think suggesting people are immature for voicing geniune concern over their business interests and threatening to lock the thread is the way to handle this frankly.

Let people have their say - within the forum rules - so that staff can see the geniune response this latest decision/"bug" has evoked and an appropriate response that takes all this into account can be formulated.


[Edited at 2007-02-18 21:33]


 

Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:56
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
I agree with you Feb 18, 2007

as for the solution and as for the freedom of speach.
Nevertheless I assume you are a lawyer. As such you should understand, that the other party shall have also its voice.
And this is only what I'm asking here for.

My other remarks were of general nature, because I have the impression, that complaing has become a widely beloved "trend" here.

So let us please stop now and wait for the possible solution, which indeed is that easy, as you say. TBH I assume tha
... See more
as for the solution and as for the freedom of speach.
Nevertheless I assume you are a lawyer. As such you should understand, that the other party shall have also its voice.
And this is only what I'm asking here for.

My other remarks were of general nature, because I have the impression, that complaing has become a widely beloved "trend" here.

So let us please stop now and wait for the possible solution, which indeed is that easy, as you say. TBH I assume that it was intended that way.

Regards
Jerzy
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Deborah do Carmo  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 01:56
Dutch to English
+ ...
Yes, FWIW I am a lawyer Feb 18, 2007

Jerzy Czopik wrote:

as for the solution and as for the freedom of speach.
Nevertheless I assume you are a lawyer. As such you should understand, that the other party shall have also its voice.
And this is only what I'm asking here for.

My other remarks were of general nature, because I have the impression, that complaing has become a widely beloved "trend" here.

So let us please stop now and wait for the possible solution, which indeed is that easy, as you say. TBH I assume that it was intended that way.

Regards
Jerzy


And the legal principle you are referring to is "audi alteram partem" (hear the other side).

However, the freelancers are still in the process of being heard - those who want to add to the discussion shouldn't be cut off.

As any good lawyer will also tell you, it's preferable to get all the issues out in the open and defined before responding, otherwise the whole thing becomes a game of ping-pong, back and forth.

So, to the extent nobody breaks any forum rules, let them get this off their chest. That way staff can draft a response, taking all possible angles into account, which will (hopefully) resolve this issue first time round to everyone's satisfaction.

Keep well
Deborah


[Edited at 2007-02-18 21:55]


 

Patricia Rosas  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:56
Spanish to English
+ ...
In memoriam
with all respect for Jersy, and all other ProZ staff... Feb 18, 2007

Lawyer-Linguist wrote:

The freelancers are currently in the process of being heard - those who want to add to the discussion shouldn't be cut off.



I'm not in any way trying to malign ProZ or anyone associated with it, but I do feel that I need to have a chance to address this (rather obscure issue) while it is uppermost in my mind. As I mentioned in my earlier posting to this thread, the last time I got some inkling that things weren't working to my benefit in the freelancers' listings, I forgot all about the problem as I rushed ahead with the concerns of daily living.

I'm inundated with work (now on Sunday afternoon) and will be even busier tomorrow (Monday) morning, so right now, I want to take the opportunity to get my concern and puzzlement (and perhaps evidence of my own stupidity for not knowing how all this works) out on the table, where those who can help me (Henry et al.) will see it.


 

Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:56
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
And I'm an engineer, FWIW :) Feb 18, 2007

You have certainly a valid point here.
But as a technician I prefer learning by doing, not by endless discussing and searching for solutions, asking again and again what might happen, if...
Would engineers and technician do so much discussing, the men would never have landed on the Moon.

An action was taken and it has caused certain movement. Now valid points about it has been brought here, so the parameters of the movement are to be modified and we then shall look how t
... See more
You have certainly a valid point here.
But as a technician I prefer learning by doing, not by endless discussing and searching for solutions, asking again and again what might happen, if...
Would engineers and technician do so much discussing, the men would never have landed on the Moon.

An action was taken and it has caused certain movement. Now valid points about it has been brought here, so the parameters of the movement are to be modified and we then shall look how the movements goes further.

As a result of this approach I only asked to stop discussing and to let the movement be fine tuned, before we go on with it. As in any very sensible steering or regulation system, one should only change one parameter at the time to get an exact nowledge of the impact of this action. If you change to many parameters, you will never be able to estimate their influence on the process - a close to reality approch, a very technical one, I admit.
So please do not think I wanted to threaten anyone - I just wanted to drop a parachute here, nothing more.
Fine tuning it is, what makes a difference - in the whole life, I mean. I think, you can agree with me here.

Regards
Jerzy
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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:56
English to German
+ ...
Clarification Feb 18, 2007

Patricia,
Patricia Lane wrote:

In EN-FR

Including the moderator's company it seems.

Patricia


It is true that I joined ProZ.com as a corporate member as soon as the option was available. For the sake of clarification, I would like to point out that I did not request my company to be included in the freelancer directory. In fact, I pointed out the inconsistency as soon as I became aware of it.

For the purposes of completeness, I do not offer English to French translation services...

I have contacted Henry and Mike, and await their reaction.

Regards,
Ralf


 

Patricia Lane  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 02:56
French to English
+ ...
For Ralf and Jerzy Feb 18, 2007

Ralf,

Thanks for the note. I had read quickly, Lawyer-Linguist caught it, and I apologized right off.


Jerzy,

Agree with you, there has been a fair amount of complaining of late. Often with good reason.

However, there have been an equally significant number of suggestions to solve issue X or propose a third option (ex: on the hooplah about the translation contest, I suggested that a distinct part of the site - invisible on search engi
... See more
Ralf,

Thanks for the note. I had read quickly, Lawyer-Linguist caught it, and I apologized right off.


Jerzy,

Agree with you, there has been a fair amount of complaining of late. Often with good reason.

However, there have been an equally significant number of suggestions to solve issue X or propose a third option (ex: on the hooplah about the translation contest, I suggested that a distinct part of the site - invisible on search engines and to clients - be dedicated to such things).

Gets frustrating when there are no replies to suggestions and things move forward despite serious questions or opposition.

Good night!

Patricia
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Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 02:56
Italian to English
In memoriam
If the arrangement is reciprocal, it's OK by me Feb 18, 2007

I checked the freelance directory for IT>EN wine translators and I still come out top of the list.

Above the list, however, is a box of the ten most relevant companies, which for the moment are not terribly relevant at all (hi there, Ralf!), presumably because there are so few corporate members as yet.

I imagine that the upcoming corporate directory search will also turn up a box of the ten most relevant freelance translators.

It might be better, though, i
... See more
I checked the freelance directory for IT>EN wine translators and I still come out top of the list.

Above the list, however, is a box of the ten most relevant companies, which for the moment are not terribly relevant at all (hi there, Ralf!), presumably because there are so few corporate members as yet.

I imagine that the upcoming corporate directory search will also turn up a box of the ten most relevant freelance translators.

It might be better, though, if the list of suggested companies in the freelance directory search, and of freelancers in the corporate directory search, could be placed in a box to one side of the results or somewhere else that doesn't distract from the main object of the search.

FWIW

Giles
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Deborah do Carmo  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 01:56
Dutch to English
+ ...
Rome wasn't built in a day ..... Feb 18, 2007

Jerzy Czopik wrote:

You have certainly a valid point here.
But as a technician I prefer learning by doing, not by endless discussing and searching for solutions, asking again and again what might happen, if...
Would engineers and technician do so much discussing, the men would never have landed on the Moon.



Except your moon analogy holds no water as one can hardly call a few hours of discussion "endless".

Let those who have valuable contributions to make, make them - it's obviously an issue people feel strongly about and if people stay within the rules, there is surely no harm done. It can only serve to give staff the fullest picture possible before responding and addressing concerns.

If we are asked to give KudoZ questions 24 hours before awarding points because of different times zones etc, let's at least apply the same rules here - in the absence of any forum abuse - before talking about closing a thread prematurely.








[Edited at 2007-02-18 22:25]


 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 20:56
SITE FOUNDER
Clarification Feb 18, 2007

Hi all,

To clarify, the sidebar in the freelancer directory--which is temporary--is intended not as a functional element in the directory, but as an informational box simply to let people know that a corporate directory now exists. We have had requests from time to time that a means be provided to search specifically for companies, and this is one of the places it makes sense to let people know that this option now exists.

We will replace what you see there now (a list
... See more
Hi all,

To clarify, the sidebar in the freelancer directory--which is temporary--is intended not as a functional element in the directory, but as an informational box simply to let people know that a corporate directory now exists. We have had requests from time to time that a means be provided to search specifically for companies, and this is one of the places it makes sense to let people know that this option now exists.

We will replace what you see there now (a list of the latest corporate members - it corresponds in no way to what was searched) with an appropriate image of some sort. Using the same logic, we will place an image / link / notification in the corporate directory pointing to the directory of freelancers.

Hope this clarifies.

Henry
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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 20:56
SITE FOUNDER
Oops - the box was positioned improperly above the directory Feb 18, 2007

Hi again,

Sorry, I posted before checking the directory. I see now that the box, which is supposed to be appearing off to the side below directory text ads, is now pushing down the freelancer results. I can see why this positioning would be troubling. I'll fix that now.

Sorry for the inconvenience. Thanks for posting, Vesna.

Henry


 

Deborah do Carmo  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 01:56
Dutch to English
+ ...
Questions Feb 18, 2007

(1) Any need to actually list corporate members by name - can't there just be mention of the fact the directory exists (if really needed at all, since it is already an option in the drop-down menu)?

(2) Will the same be done in the corporate member directory to draw people's attention to the freelancer directory?


TIA
Deborah

[Edited at 2007-02-18 22:56]


 

Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:56
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Beeing able to read is a clear advantage Feb 18, 2007

Using the same logic, we will place an image / link / notification in the corporate directory pointing to the directory of freelancers.


Greetings from a pragmatic engineer
Jerzy

PS
This is not quite serious - my day has been very long today.


[Edited at 2007-02-18 22:55]


 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 20:56
SITE FOUNDER
Probably just a quick post in reply to the second post... Feb 18, 2007

Jerzy Czopik wrote:
Using the same logic, we will place an image / link / notification in the corporate directory pointing to the directory of freelancers.

Greetings from a pragmatic engineer
Jerzy

I assume Lawyer-Linguist read the second post but not the first. Am I right (or should I explain further, LL)?


 

Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:56
English to German
+ ...
No offence, Patricia Feb 18, 2007

Hi again,
Patricia Lane wrote:

Ralf,

Thanks for the note. I had read quickly, Lawyer-Linguist caught it, and I apologized right off.

I know, and I appreciate your clarification.

Thing is, your original observation (which, of course, was factually correct) remains visible, and might lead to misunderstandings at a later stage (particularly if one doesn't read the third page).

You will appreciate that my reputation is very important to me, so I felt the need to clarify, particularly in the absence of any comment from site staff at the time. Guess you can imagine how I felt, as a site moderator, about a link to my company being shown where I believe it was misplaced.

Best regards,
Ralf


 
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