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Filtering notifications based on rates offered
Thread poster: KSL Berlin

KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:29
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
Jul 8, 2008

Is there a simple way to filter out job notices sent by outsources offering rates below a given level? I'm a bit tired sorting through all the spam from the bottom trawlers.

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Pablo Grosschmid  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:29
English to Spanish
+ ...
Unfortunately not Jul 8, 2008

In my opinion, it would be useful to have two optional filters:

1) One for filtering out those job offers without a rate offered.

2) Another one for filtering out job offers below a given level.

In both cases, a message sould be sent to the outsourcerer saying:

"Your job offer has not been sent to (number) of proz.com members who have chosen not to receive notifications of jobs without a rate offered." ; or

"Your job offer has not been sent to (number) of proz.com members who have chosen not to receive notifications of jobs at the rate offered."

This would certainly have a long-term pedagogic effect.


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Erik Freitag  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:29
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
+ ...
Excellent idea! Jul 8, 2008

I think this is an excellent idea! I would certainly use such a feature!

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Yaotl Altan  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 06:29
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Great Jul 8, 2008

It's one of the greatest ideas I've read here!

I propose to implement a specific field for providers, so that if they do not fill it, their job will not be posted. The filter can work easily once this rate field is implemented. Every user will be able to set his/her own filter according to his/her needs.


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Maria Karra  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:29
Member (2000)
Greek to English
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I don't understand Jul 8, 2008

In my opinion, it would be useful to have two optional filters:
1) One for filtering out those job offers without a rate offered.


I wish job posters didn't specify a rate at all. As a service provider I'd like to be the one to specify a rate. I'm not in favor of making that field mandatory. If it were up to me I'd get rid of it.


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KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:29
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Let them post what they want Jul 8, 2008

I like Pablo's suggestion. I don't necessarily mind dealing with a posting where no rate is specified; I've gotten a number of jobs from those where the client was willing to pay very acceptable rates. But if someone wants to screen such posts I understand completely.

However I don't consider agencies offering a few cents a word for translations worthy of the effort to click the delete button, so I'd like to have an automatic way of keeping these ones out of my mailbox. If I want to amuse myself I can always go look for them and submit a few offers at four or five times the rate suggested. Regardless of what is posted I always feel free to tell the outsourcer what I would charge. This is, after all, a business, and we set the rates.


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Jared Tabor
Local time: 08:29
SITE STAFF
You should not receive notifications for jobs below your minimum rates Jul 8, 2008

Hello Kevin and Pablo,

If you have declared your rates in your Profile Updater, you should not receive job notifications which offer rates below your minimum. In cases where the job poster has not included this information in the appropriate field (for example in the "Description" area), this filter will not work. If you are receiving notifications where the rate has been declared in the job, you have declared yours in your profile, and the jobs are below your minimum, please submit a support request with this information.

In the classic job system, job posters who post below the community rate average for a given pair are notified of this. In Connect, posters are notified of the number of service providers who will not receive notification of the job because it is below their minimum rate.

Pablo, your idea of adding a filter for jobs where no rate has been offered is an interesting one; I am adding this to the list of development "todos", to be evaluated for future implementation.

Any other feedback or suggestions you may have regarding jobs notifications and preferences are welcome. Thanks!

Best regards,

Jared


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KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:29
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
That's interesting Jul 8, 2008

Jared wrote:
If you have declared your rates in your Profile Updater, you should not receive job notifications which offer rates below your minimum.


Job #265399 lists the following:

Volume and pricing:

2000 words
at 0.070 USD per word [ TOTAL: 140.00 USD ]

It doesn't look like the rate was entered in the description field.

At the current exchange rate with the euro, that's far, far below my minimum rate. Yet the notice still showed up in my mailbox. So something obviously isn't working. I routinely get mail notification for "outsourcers" offering even less than that. It's such a distraction while I work that I've actually turned off my automatic mail polling, so that my clients occasionally wonder why I don't respond to mail as quickly as I used to. I'm still interested in seeing worthwhile notifications, but this sort of thing is just a waste of bandwidth.


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Andrea Riffo  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 08:29
English to Spanish
Agree! Jul 9, 2008

Maria Karra wrote:

I wish job posters didn't specify a rate at all. As a service provider I'd like to be the one to specify a rate. I'm not in favor of making that field mandatory. If it were up to me I'd get rid of it.


Greetings


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 07:29
English to French
+ ...
Count me in! Jul 9, 2008

Pablo Grosschmid wrote:

"Your job offer has not been sent to (number) of proz.com members who have chosen not to receive notifications of jobs at the rate offered."

This would certainly have a long-term pedagogic effect.


I fully agree. In any case, the existing filters have been discussed numerous times, and we keep getting back to the subject. I guess then this means that the filtering system is just not satisfactory for the members. We need something with a bit more muscle - like what you are suggesting.

I also agree that it should not be up to the outsourcer to "offer" rates. Do you go to the lawyer saying you would like him to sort out that copyright infringement issue at $4.95? Let's get serious... and let's get rid of that field altogether. Outsourcers are free to shop around - why don't they do just that?

[Edited at 2008-07-09 04:24]


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Pablo Grosschmid  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:29
English to Spanish
+ ...
More choice and more info for both sides Jul 9, 2008

Hello Jared,

Thank you very much for your reply.

""If you have declared your rates in your Profile Updater, you should not receive job notifications which offer rates below your minimum.""
Question: Does this only work when your rates are shown or also if they are only entered but not shown?
In any case it would be better to have an independent filter for service providers chosing not to receive notifications of posts below a certain rate.
(The problem of different currencies and fluctuating rates of exchange could be solved by a conversions updating system).

""In cases where the job poster has not included this information in the appropriate field (for example in the "Description" area), this filter will not work.""
This is why I suggested that a special filter could be useful for many colleagues, since most job offers do not state a rate offered, and all offers of "bargain hunters" are in this group. Outsourcers should be informed when posting of the existence of this filter, and after posting, of the number of service providers who have chosen to activate this filter.

""In Connect, posters are notified of the number of service providers who will not receive notification of the job because it is below their minimum rate.""
It would be good to apply this feature also to the classic system, and outsourcers should be informed as above.

Outsourcers already can select a large number of criteria for notifications, some of them barely relevant. More options, more freedom of choice, and more information at both ends would have a positive effect on the profession and the market.

BTW, the field for specifying the rate when posting a job is not mandatory and it should stay so. Nobody suggested to make it mandatory.









[Edited at 2008-07-09 05:06]


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Marek Buchtel  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 13:29
Member (2005)
English to Czech
+ ...
Notificications not filtered by rate Jul 9, 2008

Kevin Lossner wrote:

Job #265399 lists the following:

Volume and pricing:

2000 words
at 0.070 USD per word [ TOTAL: 140.00 USD ]

It doesn't look like the rate was entered in the description field.

At the current exchange rate with the euro, that's far, far below my minimum rate. Yet the notice still showed up in my mailbox. So something obviously isn't working. I routinely get mail notification for "outsourcers" offering even less than that. It's such a distraction while I work that I've actually turned off my automatic mail polling, so that my clients occasionally wonder why I don't respond to mail as quickly as I used to. I'm still interested in seeing worthwhile notifications, but this sort of thing is just a waste of bandwidth.


Same here. I'm receiving notifications with rate below my minimum as well.
This feature doesn't work, as it seems.

Marek


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Maria Karra  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:29
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
Filters, yes. Notifications, no. Jul 9, 2008

Pablo Grosschmid wrote:
BTW, the field for specifying the rate when posting a job is not mandatory and it should stay so. Nobody suggested to make it mandatory.


Pablo: True, you only suggested a filter to be used by service providers and a message to be sent to outsourcers; however, the wording of that suggested message:
"Your job offer has not been sent to (number) of proz.com members who have chosen not to receive notifications of jobs without a rate offered."


would clearly encourage outsourcers to use that field.
I don't mind if a filter is created; I'm just not going to use it. But telling outsourcers that their job posting would have reached more people if they had specified a rate will only make them start using that field without fail, and that is something that IMO would have a negative effect on the profession and the market. I am strongly against such a feature.



[Edited at 2008-07-09 18:09]


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Pablo Grosschmid  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:29
English to Spanish
+ ...
The two filters in question have different purposes. Jul 9, 2008

Dear Maria:

We are debating of two different possible filters, with two different purposes. Your last post mixes your opinion of the first one with a quote of my suggestion for the second one.

As a minimum, outsourcers should be made aware of the existence of any such filter. They have the right to know, in the same manner as we know the multiple filters outsourcers can use and do use.

Regarding the first filter, apparently we agree to strongly disagree on the effect it would/could/may have to the market and the profession to encourage outsourcers to state the rate they offer.
In the present situation, when you ask them individually to state the rate they offer for a posted job, or simply ask for a sample of the material in order to make a reasoned quote, 9 out of 10 do not even answer. Why should they?, they already have picked the cheapest. Is this good for the profession?

As to the second filter, the "educational" message a posteriori to the outsourcer, of the type suggested, would certainly have a positive effect.

But, since mere opinions are not arguments, let us see what other colleagues think.


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Maria Karra  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:29
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
filters and notifications Jul 9, 2008

Pablo Grosschmid wrote:
We are debating of two different possible filters, with two different purposes. Your last post mixes your opinion of the first one with a quote of my suggestion for the second one.


I meant to comment only on your first suggestion, the one encouraging outsourcers to specify a rate. I edited the quote in my posting.

As a minimum, outsourcers should be made aware of the existence of any such filter. They have the right to know, in the same manner as we know the multiple filters outsourcers can use and do use.


In that case, if the filter must be accompanied by a notification (which encourages them to use the rate field), then I would oppose the implementation of the filter altogether.

Regarding the first filter, apparently we agree to strongly disagree on the effect it would/could/may have to the market and the profession to encourage outsourcers to state the rate they offer.
In the present situation, when you ask them individually to state the rate they offer for a posted job, or simply ask for a sample of the material in order to make a reasoned quote, 9 out of 10 do not even answer. Why should they?, they already have picked the cheapest. Is this good for the profession?


You write that 9 out of 10 don't even answer; I've had a different experience since I joined ProZ. Outsourcers 9 times out of 10 do answer and rate negotiations are usually brief and successful. But maybe others have had a different experience.
Anyway, let's say that a lot of outsourcers don't bother to answer to everyone after they receive a quote with a low rate that they're happy with. I don't see how the filter and the notification would help in that respect (and especially how it would be beneficial to the profession in general). The way to solve this problem is to keep educating outsourcers that cheaper may not be better, or let them learn from their mistakes! A message that encourages them to specify a rate when WE are the ones providing the service and know how much our work is worth, does not make sense to me. That's why I wrote that if it were up to me I'd get rid of the rate field. There are many cases where it could save time (for example when a project is urgent and there's no time for negotiations) but in the long term it harms the profession, i.e. all of us.


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