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Discriminatory job posting
Thread poster: B D Finch

B D Finch  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 06:25
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
Apr 1, 2010

I have raised this as a support ticket, however, I would like to know what other people think about this issue.

I was quite shocked to see a current job posting calling for translators of a particular Christian denomination. Though it was a call for volunteers and not paid work, I do not think that justifies discrimination against those of other faiths, or none. Even if the work is voluntary, to indicate that Jews, Hindus, Muslims etc. need not apply is still discrimination. I am not interested in football and would not have considered applying in any case, so I am not writing this because I am personally excluded (though am doubly excluded as I am Jewish of the atheist persuasion). I am sure that many non-adherents know enough about the Church to be able to fully meet the requirements of this job. There may be some translators who are not in the requisite group, starting out who would love the opportunity to translate football-related material and be credited.

I wonder what test of religious adherence the job poster intended applying. Would ProZ accept a similar posting that asked for white translators? Are job postings by banks going to be able to specify that only supporters of capitalism need apply? Are Israeli outsourcers going to be able to insist that applicants must be Zionists, or even Jewish?

BDF

icon_mad.gif

[Edited at 2010-04-01 19:08 GMT]


 

Anna Sylvia Villegas Carvallo
Mexico
Local time: 23:25
English to Spanish
Is it...? Apr 1, 2010

Is it discriminatory to post a job asking ONLY for cheap translators?

icon_confused.gif


 

Catherine GUILLIAUMET  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:25
English to French
+ ...
Football (em... soccer) and Catholicism, what a strange cocktail! Apr 1, 2010

Dear BDF,
You are absolutely right. Religions, ethnicities, political opinions must not interfere with work, neither with anything else.
And it is a practicing Catholic who tells you that, and as such I am ashamed that a pseudo Catholic group may publish such a discriminatory ad.

Furthermore, I do not see what can be the link between soccer and catholicism. I hope that they don't pretend to sorting soccer players or teams according to their religions, or this time I'll become a soccer supporter, even if I am not at all practising neither the mere shadow of a fan.

If it was not so sad, we could laugh of such a stupidity.

Catherine


 

Neil Coffey  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:25
French to English
+ ...
Was oddly worded but... Apr 1, 2010

B D Finch wrote:
I was quite shocked to see a current job posting calling for "Catholic translators for news about the 2010 Soccer World Cup".


I saw this and thought it sounded a bit odd, but I assumed what they really meant to say was "Translators intimately acquainted with Catholicism" or some such.

I wasn't personally any more offended than if they'd said "Horse-riding translators" rather than "Translators intimately acquainted horse-riding".


 

Dr. Matthias Schauen  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 06:25
Member
English to German
The client decides who to hire Apr 1, 2010

Is it discriminatory to ask only for native speakers? I am sure there are many translators out there just starting out who would love to try a few volunteer translations and who know enough of the target language to do it.icon_wink.gif
There are also job posting here only available for paying members, or only for people with a Trados certification.
The client decides who to hire, and it sure helps to be a Catholic if you want to report from a Catholic perspective. Just as it sure helps to be a native speaker of the target language.

[Edited at 2010-04-01 18:30 GMT]


 

Amy Williams  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:25
Italian to English
+ ...
discriminatory job posting Apr 1, 2010

Maybe the organisation has specific rules that we are not party to. It might be better to assume innocence. Hopefully the poster will have the sense to choose the best person for the job, regardless of their persuasion (if any).

Let's face it (and I'm not referring to the job in question here): you can "force" a poster to be gloriously politically correct on the surface of things, but at the end of the day if they want to choose someone from a particular country, of a particular gender, etc., they will. So why faff around making niceties? Provided they are respectful and open in the process, I see no problem.

It's swings and roundabouts. Tomorrow a request might turn up for translators of another faith. We all want a slice of the cake, all of the time, and it's just not possible. In fact, something that really gets my goat in this day and age is overzealous political correctness.

Aagh I've lost the beginning of this post in my edit. I think it said something along the lines of "Interesting topic. I disagree, though. Maybe the job would have been of interest in particular to Catholic people."
Bleurgh, something like that.

Cheers,
Amy

[Edited at 2010-04-01 20:35 GMT]


 

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 06:25
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Not at all! I am cheap!! Apr 1, 2010

I think I am very cheap for the quality of my work! I would have applied for the job, even if some outsources suggest to pay 1/4 of my usual rate.

 

Giuseppina Gatta, MA (Hons)
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
I interpreted it the other way around Apr 1, 2010

Meaning that it is good to know in advance who you are helping out with your voluntary work...I actually think it is a good thing. I would never help organisations which pursue goals I don't agree with.

 

B D Finch  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 06:25
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
What is unacceptable discrimination? Apr 1, 2010

Tadzio Carvallo wrote:

Is it discriminatory to post a job asking ONLY for cheap translators?

icon_confused.gif


No, it isn't. Nor is it discriminatory to insist that translators should have specialist knowledge of the subject area. That is not the same as excluding people because of their race or beliefs.

BDF


 

PCovs
Denmark
Local time: 06:25
Member (2003)
English to Danish
+ ...
Assuming gender, race, religion etc. could not be a qualification Apr 1, 2010

It is a tricky question, when you are being discriminatory and when not.

In some cases it just might be a needed qualification to be one or the other, but if requesting it specifically, posters are deemed to discriminate.

In Denmark a case has just arisen, because a movie production company has advertised for, if I remember correctly, Asian children (adopted or otherwise) for a movie about specifically the adoption of Asian children.

Parents of adopted, Asian children and others are now protesting discrimination 'IN THE AD', mind you!?

Perhaps this would be taking the discrimination debate just a little too far, or...?


 

B D Finch  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 06:25
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Responses Apr 1, 2010

Amy Williams wrote:

... Maybe the organisation has specific rules that we are not party to. It might be better to assume innocence. Hopefully the poster will have the sense to choose the best person for the job, regardless of their persuasion (if any).

Let's face it (and I'm not referring to the job in question here): you can "force" a poster to be gloriously politically correct on the surface of things, but at the end of the day if they want to choose someone from a particular country, of a particular gender, etc., they will. So why faff around making niceties? Provided they are respectful and open in the process, I see no problem.

It's swings and roundabouts. Tomorrow a request might turn up for translators of another faith. We all want a slice of the cake, all of the time, and it's just not possible. In fact, something that really gets my goat in this day and age is overzealous political correctness. ...


Dr. Matthias Schauen wrote:

The client decides who to hire, and it sure helps to be a Catholic if you want to report from a Catholic perspective. Just as it sure helps to be a native speaker of the target language.


To respond to the second point first: it is the journalist who does the reporting from a Catholic perspective and that is fine, however the translator does not need to share the same Catholic perspective, only to understand it well enough to faithfully (pun half intended) translate the source text.

I think that Amy's argument is more serious. Dismissing action against discrimination as "political correctness" is effectively saying that it is OK for employers to be racist, sexist or discriminatory on the grounds of belief in their postings. The fact is that I can still remember when landlords in Britain would advertise property to rent with such additional information as "No blacks, Jews or Gypsies". Of course, one could say they were being "respectful" and "open" in avoiding us applying and having to face an unpleasant situation. As recently as the 1980s, a work colleague (in a London local authority with a strong equal opportunities policy) asked me not to tell anybody else that she was a Romany because she was afraid of being ostracised. Yes, hidden discrimination still operates, but opposing discrimination wherever it is found has helped make it possible for members of minority groups to apply for and get jobs that were previously closed to them, to get housing on an equal basis and not be confined to over-priced dilapidated ghettos of their "own colour" or their co-religionists. So call me a zealot, I am proud of what has been achieved, but there is still quite a way to go.

[Edited at 2010-04-01 19:47 GMT]


 

Catherine GUILLIAUMET  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:25
English to French
+ ...
It's not so far ... if you consider the EU laws Apr 1, 2010

PCovs wrote:

It is a tricky question, when you are being discriminatory and when not.

In some cases it just might be a needed qualification to be one or the other, but if requesting it specifically, posters are deemed to discriminate.

In Denmark a case has just arisen, because a movie production company has advertised for, if I remember correctly, Asian children (adopted or otherwise) for a movie about specifically the adoption of Asian children.

Parents of adopted, Asian children and others are now protesting discrimination 'IN THE AD', mind you!?

Perhaps this would be taking the discrimination debate just a little too far, or...?


It is not so far if you consider the EU legislation, which forbids the publication of ads written the way which was described at the begining of this thread or that you are describing. And penalties are very heavy in case of violation. It is why I was very shocked too.

Moreover, in France it has been included in our Constitution centuries ago.
Catherine
Sorry for my bad English


 

Charlie Bavington (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:25
French to English
As a matter of interest.... Apr 1, 2010

Amy Williams wrote:
Let's face it: you can "force" a poster to be gloriously politically correct on the surface of things, but at the end of the day if they want to choose someone from a particular country, of a particular gender, etc., they will. So why faff around making niceties? Provided they are respectful and open in the process, I see no problem.

How would you feel about someone posting a respectful and open job request for Whites only, perhaps on the grounds the translation was for the EDF or the BNP? Or men, 'cos the text is about, I dunno, hammers or testicles (hopefully not both at once).

Assuming you think that would be a little naughty, then we agree that there is a line not to be crossed, and the issue then is where the line is placed.

On the other hand, perhaps you think specifying "white men only" in a job ad would be OK, in which case we would have to agree to differicon_smile.gif

[Edited at 2010-04-01 19:42 GMT]


 

Laurent KRAULAND (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 06:25
French to German
+ ...
My shrewd way of thinking... Apr 1, 2010

B D Finch wrote:

I wonder what test of religious adherence the job poster intended applying. Would ProZ accept a similar posting that asked for white translators? Are job postings by banks going to be able to specify that only supporters of capitalism need apply? Are Israeli outsourcers going to be able to insist that applicants must be Zionists, or even Jewish?

BDF

icon_mad.gif


Maybe there was no test of religious adherence at all. And maybe the job poster considered that "offering" this unpaid job to translators of another persuasion as the specified one (i.e. all translators working in those languages pairs and having a sufficient knowledge of soccer) would have seemed offensive to those who do not share - even only with "a lip confession" - the beliefs of this faith.
And believe me (pun half-intended only too), some 70% of the followers of the faith in question are not even able to tell black from white. They have beliefs rather than sound, basic knowledge about the substance of their faith. I will not speak about their mastery of religious vocabulary: it is a vacuum.

Signed:
A former theology student, who had one teacher starting every second sentence with the introductory words: "It is not forbidden to think that..."

[Edited at 2010-04-01 20:15 GMT]


 

Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:25
German to Spanish
+ ...
Discriminatory job posting Apr 1, 2010

Dr. Matthias Schauen wrote:

Is it discriminatory to ask only for native speakers? I am sure there are many translators out there just starting out who would love to try a few volunteer translations and who know enough of the target language to do it.icon_wink.gif
There are also job posting here only available for paying members, or only for people with a Trados certification.
The client decides who to hire, and it sure helps to be a Catholic if you want to report from a Catholic perspective. Just as it sure helps to be a native speaker of the target language.

[Edited at 2010-04-01 18:30 GMT]


Completely agree.


 
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