Pages in topic:   [1 2] >
Update on changes made to the ProZ.com job posting system, 29 April, 2010
Thread poster: Jared Tabor

Jared Tabor
Local time: 00:45
SITE STAFF
Apr 29, 2010

Dear Members,

This is the third update posted on some of the progress being made in the changes to the ProZ.com job posting system. Previous updates are now listed under the "Updates" section at http://www.proz.com/about/ipetition/changes

Some numbers from this week:


  • 19% of jobs posted this week contained budget information. (26% last week)

  • Of that 19%, 11% were budgets below rates entered by members. (14% last week)

  • 2% of all jobs posted this week had budget ranges known to be below the rates charged by at least 80% of ProZ.com members. (3.6% last week)



What's new this week:


  • Job posters cannot enter budget information if there are no members who meet the requirements and have indicated they would like to see budget information. (Update your setting here)

  • Members can now request budget information from the job poster if it was not entered. This information will be available to anyone who meets the requirements and has indicated they would like to see budget information.

  • In response to requests from members who want the option of being notified of jobs below their entered rates, without having to alter their actual minimum rate, there is a new setting that allows you to control whether or not you receive notifications of job postings that are below your rates. Update your setting here (bottom of the page).

  • A new policy has been added on the legality of some job posts:

    There is a job posting in which the outsourcer's budget is below the legal minimums in certain countries. Can it be removed?

    If the violation is direct (ex. 2 units per hour where the minimum wage is 4 units per hour), please enter a support request so that staff members can consider removal. (A job posting can not be removed on the basis of assumptions as to work rate, however.) If you suspect a violation of this policy, please report it via the online support system (links are provided at the bottom of each job posting to facilitate this).

    An article has been started in the ProZ.com Wiki, Minimum wage by country, which references existing documentation on minimum wage allowed by law in different countries. Translators are encouraged to reference this information and add to it where needed.


  • A set of notes and links were added to the Rates calculator:

    Bear in mind that in any given market or area of specialization, the going rates for translation may be higher, so another way to approach pricing is to research going rates and shooting for what *can* be earned.

    • You are the only one who can decide how much to charge to deliver the required level of quality for a given job.
    • Make sure you charge enough for working time, vacations and contingencies such as illness or unexpected problems.
    • You may want to read or contribute to this wiki article: Determine your rates and fees as a translator .
    • Update your rates by language pair.




    What's next:


    • Improvements on profile rates information


    Details on the changes to the job posting system, staff reaction, and member involvement and input can all be seen on the changes to be made to the ProZ.com job posting system pages.

    If you have not done so already, you may subscribe to the above pages to receive email notification when updates are made or new information is added.

    Once again, thanks to site members for the continued support and feedback, which is what makes improvements like these possible.

    Regards,

    Jared
    Member services
    ProZ.com

    Direct link Reply with quote
     

  • Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
    Spain
    Local time: 03:45
    Member (2007)
    English
    + ...
    Has the number of quotes dropped? Apr 29, 2010

    Hello Jared,

    Thanks for all your efforts.

    Is it my imagination, or has the average number of quotes received per posting dropped somewhat?

    If so, does it seem to be linked to these changes or rather to the ending of the "quotes for BrowniZ" offer?

    If the number of quoters really has dropped, I hope ProZ won't see this as a negative development. I suppose it might be evidence of a drop-off in the numbers using the site, but perhaps these were the casual, translating-for-pleasure users rather than the more professional translators. Maybe they were the ones offering to do jobs for stupidly low rates.

    Naturally, I'm happy from a personal point of view to have my quotes more noticeable but I'm also happy to see this trend towards more serious job offers for more serious translators. Let's hope it's a trend (if indeed it does exist!) that continues.

    Sheila


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Attila Piróth  Identity Verified
    France
    Local time: 04:45
    Member
    English to Hungarian
    + ...
    Clarification, please Apr 29, 2010

    Jared wrote:

  • A new policy has been added on the legality of some job posts:

    There is a job posting in which the outsourcer's budget is below the legal minimums in certain countries. Can it be removed?

    If the violation is direct (ex. 2 units per hour where the minimum wage is 4 units per hour), please enter a support request so that staff members can consider removal. (A job posting can not be removed on the basis of assumptions as to work rate, however.) If you suspect a violation of this policy, please report it via the online support system (links are provided at the bottom of each job posting to facilitate this).


  • Hi Jared,

    I have four questions:

    1.) Could you specify what "certain countries" means? The outsourcer's country? Or the translator's country if the outsourcer specified his/her preference?

    2.) Also: is it a net sum or a gross sum? For example, in France the minimum hourly wage (SMIC) for salaried workers a bit under 9 euros per hour net; as taxes are quote high, a freelancer needs to invoice about the double to get the same net hourly income. Is this taken into account?

    3.) Can you also clarify why the legal, rock-bottom minimum for any kind of job is a good benchmark? Was this specific sum requested by freelancers – in whose interest this job posting system is undergoing this update? If anyone who requested this is around: could you explain me the motivations? For example, outsourcer and/or translator located is the US: is an hourly fee of USD 7.25 a relevant benchmark?

    4.) Do I also get it right that outsourcers specifying a per-word rate are not affected by this implementation: USD 0.01 is fine, as all the translator needs to do is produce 750 words/hour, so he/she earns more than the minimum hourly wage. (Or well over 1000 if taxes are taken into account.) If this is indeed the case, could we get statistics about how many jobs posted last week are affected by this implementation?

    Kind regards,
    Attila


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Ursula Derx  Identity Verified
    Austria
    Local time: 04:45
    Member (2005)
    English to German
    Minimum wage - for workers/employees vs. freelancers Apr 29, 2010

    First of all, thanks to proz.com for all efforts in this respect.

    I just have a comment regarding so-called minimum wages. This might be confusing, since normally minimum wages are those that are legally determined to have to be paid to EMPLOYEES and WORKERS, but have NOTHING TO DO with freelance work.

    In fact, legal minimum wages will be by far lower than any freelancer needs to charge, due to the following reasons:

    As Jared also noted, freelance rates have to be calculated in such a way that off-times, sickness, holidays, etc. are taken into account. Also a freelancer has to consider "unpaid" working hours for other work, like training, administration, invoicing, tax return, marketing activities etc.

    All these are NOT included in the minimum wages (which legally apply to employees and workers, who e.g. in Austria receive a 13th and 14th monthly remuneration, and - what's most important - who have no unpaid working hours).

    As far as I know, there is no law that determines minimum fees for freelancers. There are only guidelines by professional associations. Isn't it so in other countries as well?


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Jared Tabor
    Local time: 00:45
    SITE STAFF
    TOPIC STARTER
    Thanks Sheila Apr 29, 2010

    Hi Sheila,

    Sheila Wilson wrote:
    Is it my imagination, or has the average number of quotes received per posting dropped somewhat?

    If so, does it seem to be linked to these changes or rather to the ending of the "quotes for BrowniZ" offer?


    I do not have any information which would indicate that quotes themselves have dropped. Job posting activity is up. And I wouldn't relate any substantial change in quoting (if there were) to the removal of the use of browniz points in quoting-- as pointed out in http://www.proz.com/topic/152417 nearly all quotes (90%) come from paying members, or from non-members who have cash in their wallets.


    Naturally, I'm happy from a personal point of view to have my quotes more noticeable but I'm also happy to see this trend towards more serious job offers for more serious translators. Let's hope it's a trend (if indeed it does exist!) that continues.


    It might be reasonable to say that, as tools are improved (on both the outsourcer and service provider ends of the equation), and translators start to collaborate more in exchanging information and best practices (through the ProZ.com Wiki and other means), changes may start to be felt. I would emphasize the latter of these two forces-- collaboration-- as the big gun in affecting change, not just on ProZ.com but elsewhere as well.

    Best regards,

    Jared


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Jared Tabor
    Local time: 00:45
    SITE STAFF
    TOPIC STARTER
    Job postings below the the legal minimums Apr 29, 2010

    Hi Attila and Ursula,

    Regarding the policy for removal of job postings when they are clearly below the legal minimum: this would apply when the job is posted from a country where a legal minimum applies. The policy is to be used in clear-cut cases, where there is an obvious violation of law is present. The policy of course may not be applicable in all countries, if no legislation to govern this is present yet. The wiki article was created with this purpose in mind-- to begin to collect relevant data on a country-by-country basis.

    Best regards,

    Jared


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    xxxcmwilliams  Identity Verified
    United Kingdom
    Local time: 03:45
    French to English
    + ...
    agree with Ursula Apr 29, 2010

    Ursula Derx wrote:

    .....normally minimum wages are those that are legally determined to have to be paid to EMPLOYEES and WORKERS, but have NOTHING TO DO with freelance work.

    In fact, legal minimum wages will be by far lower than any freelancer needs to charge, due to the following reasons:

    As Jared also noted, freelance rates have to be calculated in such a way that off-times, sickness, holidays, etc. are taken into account. Also a freelancer has to consider "unpaid" working hours for other work, like training, administration, invoicing, tax return, marketing activities etc.

    All these are NOT included in the minimum wages (which legally apply to employees and workers, who e.g. in Austria receive a 13th and 14th monthly remuneration, and - what's most important - who have no unpaid working hours).



    Legal minimum wages have nothing to do with freelance/self-employed work and should not be used as a basis for comparison. Using the minimum wage as a basis seems to convey the message that it's ok for outsourcers to pay low rates, as long as they aren't less than the legal minimum which, as Ursula has pointed out, are normally much lower than freelancers would charge. Freelance translators are not employees so why is this comparison being made?


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Denise Boehning  Identity Verified
    United States
    Local time: 22:45
    German to English
    Rates Apr 29, 2010

    I am glad for this change. I noticed some job postings had the most outrageous rates ($0.02/word) and have a hard time beleiving any Qualified Professional Translator even would consider accepting such rates and am even more outraged by these agencies offering such per word rates?!

    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Vitals  Identity Verified
    Lithuania
    Local time: 05:45
    Member (2008)
    English to Lithuanian
    + ...
    Thank you Apr 29, 2010

    I was just about to post it somewhere in Proz and say that the BUDGET INFO really helps a lot, it is very convenient. Thank you once again for this change!

    Yours,
    Vitalijus


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Iza Szczypka  Identity Verified
    Spain
    Local time: 04:45
    English to Polish
    + ...
    I did some maths based on Polish conditions Apr 29, 2010

    Ursula Derx wrote:
    As Jared also noted, freelance rates have to be calculated in such a way that off-times, sickness, holidays, etc. are taken into account. Also a freelancer has to consider "unpaid" working hours for other work, like training, administration, invoicing, tax return, marketing activities etc.

    In Poland the minimum monthly wage is PLN 1317 gross (984 net) for 168,6 hrs a month on average, i.e. a 40-hour working week, with all employee entitlements like sick pay at 80%, paid holiday of 26 working days etc. In terms of hourly rates, this is 7.80 gross.

    However, as my work is covered by corporate law and not labour law, I need to have a gross hourly rate of 9.50 (instead of 7.80) and work 40 hours every single week out of 52 just to arrive at the same net income - no sickness, no holidays, no X-mas break, no purchase of a computer mouse or a dictionary, just toiling. (And to earn the equivalent of normal summer / bank holiday entitlements of a minimum-wage worker plus his net income, I'd need a rate of at least 11.30 ph, i.e. 144% of his.)

    Working on this luxury rate of 9.50 (121% of minimum), should I lose anything more than 12 hrs a month of paid time (lack of jobs, unpaid administrative / marketing time, celebrating a bank holiday etc.), I would fall not only below the minimum wage, but also below the threshold of social exclusion. And if I earned the gross minimum wage for the permanently employed, my net income would be 16% below the social exclusion level. NB, it's officially called social exclusion threshold, but in my view it has more to do with biological survival...

    So much about the use of minimum wage as a benchmark.

    [Edited at 2010-04-29 23:01 GMT]


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Laurent KRAULAND  Identity Verified
    France
    Local time: 04:45
    French to German
    + ...
    Seeing it the other way Apr 30, 2010

    cmwilliams wrote:

    Legal minimum wages have nothing to do with freelance/self-employed work and should not be used as a basis for comparison. Using the minimum wage as a basis seems to convey the message that it's ok for outsourcers to pay low rates, as long as they aren't less than the legal minimum which, as Ursula has pointed out, are normally much lower than freelancers would charge. Freelance translators are not employees so why is this comparison being made?


    Yes and no, if I am allowed to say. Minimum wages may have nothing to do with freelance work. Nevertheless, and when rates are discussed on this site, the advice mostly given by long-time professionals is "Know what you want to earn per hour". Furthermore, relevant and irrelevant comparisons with craftsmen pop up on a regular basis.

    Not allowing the use of these minimum wages as a hint, a comparison - and just that - IMO conveys the message that it is perfectly acceptable for freelancers in a given country to work for less than the minimum legal wage. This in turn encourages some wannabes to think that "translation" can be a nice way to supplement their regular income as an employee.

    As an example, and with a basis of 300 words/hour, one would earn about 0.0295 € gross per word if working for the French SMIC.

    There are outsourcers in Europe and in France who find it perfectly normal to "offer" even less than that. Of course, one can always decline such offers. But it won't prevent those outsourcers to try their luck elsewhere and eventually to find one of those "born every minute".

    [Edited at 2010-04-30 05:05 GMT]


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Tacito  Identity Verified
    Germany
    Local time: 04:45
    German to Italian
    + ...
    Now we begin to consider the reality surrounding us Apr 30, 2010

    With the posts of Iza Szczypka and Attila Piróth this forum begins to consider the social and economic reality where we, the translators, are operating, and the real position of the translators in this reality.
    I live in Europe, therefore I refer to the conditions in Europe.
    In Europe there are 4 categories of persons.
    1. Millionaires, politicians, traders etc.
    2. "Civil servants", "Fonctionnaires", "Beamten", "Statali" and employees of state-owned companies, (e.g. in France: EDF (Electricité de France), GDF (Gas de France)m SNCF (railways). They cannot be laid off, they have a guaranteed income, their employer will never bankrupt, they are not responsible for mistakes they make, they can always increase their income with strikes.
    3. Employees of the private industry. Less privileged. They can strike, but eventually they will be confronted with the bankrupt of their company, because somewhere on earth there are workers, who accept lower salaries and worse conditions.
    4. People like translators. This category comprehends craftsmen (tailors, carpenters, farmers, and in general small independent businesses like restaurants) who have no legal protection against loss of income, no social power, full responsibility for errors and are strangled by taxation and social charges.
    This is the reality, and we cannot change it.
    I appreciate and support the efforts of Proz.com staff, but I am afraid that the result will be limited

    Tacito


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Ursula Derx  Identity Verified
    Austria
    Local time: 04:45
    Member (2005)
    English to German
    Re: minimum wages Apr 30, 2010

    Laurent KRAULAND wrote:

    Not allowing the use of these minimum wages as a hint, a comparison - and just that - IMO conveys the message that it is perfectly acceptable for freelancers in a given country to work for less than the minimum legal wage. This in turn encourages some wannabes to think that "translation" can be a nice way to supplement their regular income as an employee.



    Of course, it is ridiculous to work for less than a minimum wage as a freelancer.
    Just to make my point again:

    Minimum wages (the term in my opinion refers to EMPLOYED only) in Austria are between 7-10 EUR per hour.
    While as a freelancer you need to charge approx. 30-50 EUR per hour (3-4 times the amount ) in order to end up with the same net income.

    Therefore - although I agree that nobody should accept a fee that is less than the legal minimum wage, I also would like to point out that nobody should accept a fee that is equal or above the legal minimum wage, but still below his or her calculated hourly rate.

    The hourly rate of a freelancer has to consider off-times, sickness, holidays, as well as "unpaid" working hours for other work, like training, administration, invoicing, tax return, marketing activities etc.

    Therefore, I just think that it might be dangerous to use the legal minimum wage as a reference.



    [Edited at 2010-04-30 12:26 GMT]


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Jared Tabor
    Local time: 00:45
    SITE STAFF
    TOPIC STARTER
    The "legal minimums" should not be used as a measurement for what a translator should be making Apr 30, 2010

    Hello all,

    The the "legal minimums" policy might apply, for instance, to an in-house position, where the concept of wages is clearly appropriate. While in most cases the policy may not apply to freelance workers, it was implemented in order to help cover the legal aspects of retribution to language professionals.

    Obviously, this will apply to very few cases, but it is another way of building a structure of respect for the income of language professionals.

    The policy is not intended, and should in no way be used as a "benchmark" or measurement of what a freelancer should be charging or making on any given job-- far from it.

    Regards,

    Jared


    Direct link Reply with quote
     

    Cristina Heraud-van Tol  Identity Verified
    Peru
    Local time: 22:45
    Member (2005)
    English to Spanish
    + ...
    I have noticed something similar as well Apr 30, 2010

    Sheila Wilson wrote:

    Hello Jared,

    Thanks for all your efforts.

    Is it my imagination, or has the average number of quotes received per posting dropped somewhat?

    If so, does it seem to be linked to these changes or rather to the ending of the "quotes for BrowniZ" offer?


    I remember when that change of the BrowniZ took place, there was a huge discussion and many translators said they would change from translation portal. Others, probably are not very satisfied with other changes and are not participating (or applying to jobs) as before.

    Accustomed to apply to an English to Spanish job and competing against 75-90 applicants, these days I have noticed numbers that are between 46 and 60 applicants. It all gives the impression that before one could be chosen 1 in 1000, now it looks like 1 in 100*.

    *The number is always higher than the number of applicants you actually see on the site because some translators contact the outsourcer directly, either via e-mail, ProZ mail, their website contact info, etc.

    [Edited at 2010-04-30 13:25 GMT]


    Direct link Reply with quote
     
    Pages in topic:   [1 2] >


    To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


    You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

    Update on changes made to the ProZ.com job posting system, 29 April, 2010

    Advanced search






    Wordfast Pro
    Translation Memory Software for Any Platform

    Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users! Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value

    More info »
    memoQ translator pro
    Kilgray's memoQ is the world's fastest developing integrated localization & translation environment rendering you more productive and efficient.

    With our advanced file filters, unlimited language and advanced file support, memoQ translator pro has been designed for translators and reviewers who work on their own, with other translators or in team-based translation projects.

    More info »



    Forums
    • All of ProZ.com
    • Term search
    • Jobs
    • Forums
    • Multiple search