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Does Proz check job posters?
Thread poster: Darmali
Darmali  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 18:36
Member (2009)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
Dec 4, 2014

Maybe others have noticed this as well. A particular job poster is very active in my language pair (English -Indonesian) and various other language pairs, among others, English -French, English-German, English-Chinese, English-Japanese, English-Spanish, and has posted about 20 jobs between January-December of this year, with above average rates and good payment terms. There are 2 blue board entries, both 5, without any comments. However, if you click on the URL, the contents of the site are dubious (IMHO). Does Proz check job posters?

Angela


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Andrea Halbritter  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 13:36
French to German
+ ...
I don't really think so... Dec 4, 2014

I do post jobs and have never been anything asked. At the beginning I did not even have a homepage.

Sometimes they have a look on what you post and if there are some details failing (e. g. in your address) or if the information does not fit with the rest of your profile (e. g. you use two adresses) they don't accept to publish the job and contact the outsourcer (e. g. saying please complete...., use one adress only etc.).


I don't think though this can really be called controlled. I have nether been asked to send them the number I registred my business with in France nor a VAT-number or anything of that sort, so I guess there is not really a control. If I would have given any false information no one would have noticed (this is my impression).

[Modifié le 2014-12-04 06:41 GMT]


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Andrea Halbritter  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 13:36
French to German
+ ...
What's dubious? Dec 4, 2014

What do you find dubious in the contents of the site? Can you explain please?

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Vadim Kadyrov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 14:36
Member (2011)
English to Russian
+ ...
The same situation in my language pair (EN-RU) Dec 4, 2014

This is an agency from one of the Scandinavian countries.

I believe this person is simply gathering CVs of translators.


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Darmali  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 18:36
Member (2009)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Company website promotes different things as well Dec 4, 2014

Andrea,

The career section is just one of several sections, and they are not just looking for translators (also nurses, painters etc.), and on their homepage they promote photos of scantily clad ladies. That's why I called it dubious (questionable) content and asked whether Proz checks job posters.. Maybe Vadim is right, they are collecting people's CVs.

Angela


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Jared Tabor
Local time: 08:36
SITE STAFF
Posted jobs are checked by site staff Dec 4, 2014

Hi all,

ProZ.com staff check and vet posted jobs, yes. Posted jobs are expected to meet the site's rules for job posting, http://www.proz.com/?sp=siterules&mode=show&category=jobs_posting . However, at the bottom of each job is a link to "Report this job to site staff" in the event you see a job which may not be in line with site rules.

Jared


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Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:36
English to German
+ ...
Checking and vetting based on site rules does not prevent the posting of unprofessional "offers" Dec 4, 2014

Jared Tabor wrote:

Hi all,

ProZ.com staff check and vet posted jobs, yes. Posted jobs are expected to meet the site's rules for job posting, http://www.proz.com/?sp=siterules&mode=show&category=jobs_posting . However, at the bottom of each job is a link to "Report this job to site staff" in the event you see a job which may not be in line with site rules.

Jared


The site rules say nothing about not proposing ludicrous and unprofessional rates. Anyone can and many do post jobs with rates or budgets (although this is of course an option for the job poster) that are well below even what Proz.com has gathered on their rate page as minimum and standard rates.

See: http://search.proz.com/employers/rates
(By the way, naming that link/site "employers rates" is misleading: We freelance translators are not "employed", and the rates posted at that site are collected from outsourcers and translators alike, right?!)

Most outsourcers on the job board do it anyhow and it is very likely (because these job posts continue every day) that many people who call themselves translators have nothing better to do than simply accepting inadequate rates; the site rules do nothing to prevent very questionable business practices and hurting professionals who won't stoop to such lows. It would seem you're not interested in preventing such practice. The argument is that you don't get involved in the actual business transactions. But you must admit that the only reason that business transaction comes about is because the job is posted here.

I suggest you try to put (more of) the "Pro" back into "ProZ.com" and, as a first step, do away altogether with the option for job posters to suggest rates/prices. It's the service provider who should specify such rates. By allowing outsourcers to propose rates, even if it's optional, you enable them to find translators who will accept such rates, even if the rates are absolutely unprofessional and inadequate, amounting to nothing more than exploitation of people who don't know any better.

Or you add something to your site rules that says "if ProZ.com determines that a job post contains a rate or budget proposal that is deemed inadequate or unprofessional, ProZ.com reserves the right to remove it anytime without explanation."
Otherwise, you'll have people post translation jobs for USD 0.01/word and it will still be no violation of your site rules. That may be true but "professional" it ain't.


[Edited at 2014-12-05 04:16 GMT]


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Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:36
English to German
+ ...
Is there anything else that's worrying? Anyone else have an opinion? Dec 5, 2014

Darmali wrote:

Maybe others have noticed this as well. A particular job poster is very active in my language pair (English -Indonesian) and various other language pairs, among others, English -French, English-German, English-Chinese, English-Japanese, English-Spanish, and has posted about 20 jobs between January-December of this year, with above average rates and good payment terms. There are 2 blue board entries, both 5, without any comments. However, if you click on the URL, the contents of the site are dubious (IMHO). Does Proz check job posters?

Angela


I tried to point to another problem with job posts in my previous reply to this topic in your thread but it hasn't gathered much interest.

Nevertheless, I believe we should be very alert these days regarding all the goings-on in our profession, especially on this major portal. Post-editing machine translations is one of the newer tricks (IMO) to get translators to supply quality translations by disguising them as editing jobs. The rates suggested for that are unbelievably ugly and there is nothing right about it. Nevertheless, you can post any job and call it anything and propose a price, no matter if it's USD 0.25/word or USD .0.025/word or USD 0.001/word for that matter. It doesn't violate site rules and there is no reason, apparently for Proz.com as well as anyone posting or accepting such jobs at these abysmal conditions, to think there is anything wrong with it.

It must be said though that there have been an incredible number of these postings in the past and that they continue and get worse with regard to proposed rates - it happens every day. So someone is accepting these jobs. This has a ripple effect in many directions within our profession, especially concerning our ability to charge adequate rates - and we should be able to charge these rates.

I know Proz.com's stance is that they don't get involved in the actual business transactions, but as a portal, Proz.com is the entity that facilitates these postings. These low-balling "offers" are the opposite of professional and they should be vetted and rejected. I do think Proz.com needs to add a paragraph or two about what a professional job posting is to its site rules and if Proz.com finds it's not in line with those provisions, Proz.com should reserve its right to reject and delete that job.

Or do away with the option for job posters to post suggestions (often meant to be non-negotiable demands) altogether since we, the translators/language experts, are the service providers who are the ones who should be determining the rates, not the posters.

If unprofessional offers don't violate the site rules, then why call this site Proz.com?!
I am still interested in solutions for this problem but have not seen any urgent move by Proz.com to deal with this.

Seriously, how can you accept a job posting that advertises a job for EUR .025/word (a post-editing MT job) and not have something in your rules that prevents that?

If this continues unchecked, there won't be any professional jobs left here, and I can already see the ripple effect with regard to the directory.

I'm not intentionally trying to give Proz.com a bad name but please try seeing it from my point of view and that of other professional colleagues.

And here's a suggestion for those who accept such unacceptable offers because they are so desperate that they take anything: work at a fast food joint (you might get paid more there anyway).


[Edited at 2014-12-06 05:31 GMT]


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Thayenga  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:36
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Blocking low rates? Dec 7, 2014

Perhaps there is a way to allow job posters to enter a proposed rate that their budget allows, but that the interface/mask won't accept any entries below 0.10 (in any currency). Not being an IT-nerd, I don't know if that is possible/feasible. If so, then at least all bottom feeders are prevented from posting jobs on ProZ.com.

Yes, I know, they then search the data base and send emails to the service providers, either offering or hoping for their low-low rates. Whenever I get such a collaboration offer, I state my rate and... oftentimes hitting the "send" icon is the last action completed in this correspondence.

I do agree with Bernhard that those ridiculously low rates (a peanut shy of demanding to be paid by the translator for that job) shouldn't be allowed to be posted on a professional site.


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Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Duplicated post

Paulinho Fonseca  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 08:36
Member (2011)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Dear, take a look at this... Dec 7, 2014

Thayenga wrote:

Perhaps there is a way to allow job posters to enter a proposed rate that their budget allows, but that the interface/mask won't accept any entries below 0.10 (in any currency). Not being an IT-nerd, I don't know if that is possible/feasible. If so, then at least all bottom feeders are prevented from posting jobs on ProZ.com.

Yes, I know, they then search the data base and send emails to the service providers, either offering or hoping for their low-low rates. Whenever I get such a collaboration offer, I state my rate and... oftentimes hitting the "send" icon is the last action completed in this correspondence.

I do agree with Bernhard that those ridiculously low rates (a peanut shy of demanding to be paid by the translator for that job) shouldn't be allowed to be posted on a professional site.






It's not possible that companies demand quality when offering such low rates...

required Portuguese English translator for small 1 page now
The budget entered for this job is below the rates charged by at least 80% of ProZ.com members for this pair and currency.

$0.02 USD to $0.05 USD per word

I know we are living in a democracy, but this is outrageous.




[Edited at 2014-12-07 17:29 GMT]


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Thayenga  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:36
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
A free market Dec 8, 2014

Paulinho Fonseca wrote:

It's not possible that companies demand quality when offering such low rates...

required Portuguese English translator for small 1 page now
The budget entered for this job is below the rates charged by at least 80% of ProZ.com members for this pair and currency.

$0.02 USD to $0.05 USD per word

I know we are living in a democracy, but this is outrageous.




[Edited at 2014-12-07 17:29 GMT]


Hi Paulinho,

yes, this is a free market (democracy). Therefore, we have the right to refuse such insulting rates.

Oh I have seen that note entered by ProZ.com staff / moderators. Or perhaps it's generated automatically when a non-acceptable rate is posted. It would be nice not having to see such "offers" at all. After all, the translator doesn't even get these rates because these agencies usually paying through PayPal, and I believe there's no need to discuss PayPal's hefty fees.

Regarding the quality: what you see (offer) is what you get.


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Madeleine Chevassus  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 13:36
Member (2010)
English to French
strange.. Dec 8, 2014

Hi
once upon a time, I was interested by a Proz job. I noticed that, beside the name, there was no information about the outsourcer: no company name, address, country etc.

I found it was crazy to quote in such a context.

I contacted Proz support who told me that "this information was given to Proz by the outsourcer, who activated an option to hide everything to the possible quoters".

I call that "ghosts outsourcers" and I don't quote for such offers.

Did you meet such cases?

Have a good day

Madeleine


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Trisha F  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:36
English to Spanish
+ ...
Jobs should be checked Dec 8, 2014

I sometimes go on freelancer websites to look for jobs. I do this to keep my options open but do not expect a great raise in my income. Rates are dismal more often than not, I do not bid often because the initial expectations of many clients are usually to get a high volume of work done at a ridiculous price, i.e. 63K words for lesss than 300 dollars (and you get 40 bidders or more at those rates!). Sometimes, even if your bid is fairly low, it will be rejected as "too high". I can expect that from those sites because they are not specialised in translation or any other field and it may be complicated to work out what is fair and what is not for the admin team. Also, they are designed to favour the end client, not the freelancer.

Nevetheless, Proz is different. It is not only a translation website, it is perhaps the best known site for translators. It is, or should be, a reference, a standard. If quality offers were the norm and vetting took place, perhaps it would be healthier for professionals and clients, as quality on both sides would be expected and encouraged. We could even get a more dynamic and prolific job board because, being realistic, translators here outnumber the amount of jobs offered.

[Edited at 2014-12-08 18:55 GMT]


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Katarzyna Slowikova  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:36
Polish to Czech
+ ...
Why on Earth are you all discussing rates (again)??? Dec 9, 2014

Vadim Kadyrov wrote:

This is an agency from one of the Scandinavian countries.

I believe this person is simply gathering CVs of translators.



This is interesting and worrying too.
How come it didn't catch anybody's attention?? Instead you're discussing rates, as if there was anything new to be said in this matter.... and as if it was the subject of the original post.
The fact this agency (of whatever kind) offers above average rates makes Vadim's suggestion even more plausible, imho. A new incarnation of identity theft scammers?
Doesn't THIS worry you?

Btw. how did you Vadim establish their location? Just some info on their website or something more sophisticated (I'm lame, sorry)?


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