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ProZ.com staff deleting Blue Board entry?
Thread poster: Lingua 5B

Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:29
English to Croatian
+ ...
Aug 3, 2016

I was just wondering...

Is the alleged quality issue an ultimate card to pull for any outsourcer with really bad reputation?

The situation is such that an outsourcer with really bad reputation (banned from posting jobs on ProZ) reports alleged quality issue as a reason for non-payment and ProZ automatically deletes the 1 entry given to them for non-payment?

Now I am wondering, should it be:

1. looking into things first
2. deleting the entry

or

1. deleting the entry first
2. looking into things

ProZ chooses the second option, which means that the outsourcer with bad reputation is buying more time for themselves for an outstanding payment (already largely overdue) plus they have their record cleaned. They certainly need that time they are buying for something. Does this mean any outsourcer can report quality issues at random and the bad entry will be automatically deleted without looking into trustworthiness of their reports, is it THAT extreme?

So an outsourcer with already damaged reputation and previous reports from translators is automatically trusted more than a translator with good reputation?

Your comments?


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Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:29
English to Croatian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Deleted comments on this thread. Aug 3, 2016

I received messages from translators who tried to add their regular comment to this thread (nothing against the rules), even twice, but their messages were deleted (twice). Can I receive an explanation for this please, thanks?

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Yasutomo Kanazawa  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:29
English to Japanese
+ ...
I don't see any deleted comments. Aug 3, 2016

When comments are deleted, there is always a sign saying something like "Deleted posted" or "Comments deleted" due to site rule violation #XX or empty post.

There are only three posts to this topic including mine and yours and no other deleted comments.


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Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:29
English to Croatian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for the report, Yasutomo. Aug 3, 2016

Thanks for the feedback, I was just forwarding what I received via private messages. Perhaps there was a bug involved when trying to post, at that point.

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Natalie  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 07:29
Member (2002)
English to Russian
+ ...

MODERATOR
The thread has been moved to more appropriate forum (ProZ.com job systems) Aug 3, 2016

and the system has sent notifications to you. After the thread is moved, some 10-15 minutes should pass before any replies can be posted (this is due to technical reasons related with server synchronization).
Also, the title of the thread has been edited, and, once again, the system has notified you.
Hopefully this is clear.

What about your question concerning the Blue Board entry: the detailed answer to it may be found in the site FAQ here: http://www.proz.com/faq/5323#5323


2.23 - I submitted an LWA entry for an outsourcer and it is no longer visible. Why?

If you submitted an entry for an outsourcer that was visible for some time and that is no longer visible it is possible that your entry was contested by the outsourcer. Note that in cases in which an entry is contested, the entry is made invisible by staff until the issue has been clarified.

If you are sure your entry is in line with Blue Board rules, and it is being contested by the outsourcer, please submit a support request with all relevant evidence (email correspondence, PO, etc.).


Your Blue Board entry has been contested by the outsourcer, therefore the site staff has taken steps in accordance with the site rules.

For any further information, please submit a support request.


[Edited at 2016-08-03 10:59 GMT]


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Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:29
English to Croatian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Entry contested 5 months after it has been added? Aug 3, 2016

It took them 5 months to realize they would like to contest it?

OK, thanks for the report, Natalie.

Please disregard my previous comment here, it might have been a bug for some commentators when trying to post at that very moment (my comment was not related to changing the title or moving the thread, nothing to do with it). Thanks once again.


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Jenny Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:29
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
Shocking Aug 3, 2016

To my mind it's shocking that Proz removes a translator's negative entry concerning an already dodgy agency (dodgy because banned from posting jobs on Proz) based on the agency's allegation of poor quality (five months!! after delivery of the work!!). In such cases, Proz should allow the negative entry and then immediately investigate the truth or otherwise of the allegations of both parties.
Otherwise, translators will hesitate to make less-than-glowing entries about bad payers for fear of counter-allegations of poor quality which could harm their own reputations.
This is what makes the Blue Board unreliable and defeats its purpose - to inform translators and protect them against bad payers.
This is my third attempt at making this entry. Will it appear in the thread this time?


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Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:29
English to Croatian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
My invisible comment, my invisible experience and their invisible debt. Aug 3, 2016

Since my voice cannot be heard and seen on that board now, can I assume there are other invisible voices there that had been stopped by alleged unchecked quality issues? How many other 1s had been deleted? 10, 20? Is this why this agency has a combination of 96% 5 score and ban notice at the top page? How is this combination realistically possible? Is it even slightly logical?

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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 06:29
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Posts shouldn't be lost though, surely? Aug 3, 2016

Natalie wrote:
After the thread is moved, some 10-15 minutes should pass before any replies can be posted (this is due to technical reasons related with server synchronization).

I know you're a moderator rather than site staff, Natalie, but perhaps you could pass on my own concern that posts during that interval are getting lost in the ether. I ended up losing the text that I'd taken some while to put together - a complete waste of my time.

This is the second time in two days that that has happened. So either it's an incredible coincidence or something has changed to cause these posts to be lost rather than moved along with the thread. Delayed is something I can cope with, but not lost. Frankly, it's demotivating.


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Paula Durrosier  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 03:29
English to Spanish
+ ...
Please submit a support request Aug 3, 2016

Hello Lingua 5B,

In the first place, please note that your entry for the outsourcer in question has not been deleted nor removed. When a Blue Board record entry is contested it is generally hidden temporarily until we can check the issue in depth. Correspondence submitted by both parties (service provider and outsourcer) is analysed and if it is found that the entry is in line with site rules, then the entry is made visible again. If it is found that the entry is not in line with the rules for posting Blue Board feedback as described in Blue Board site rule #2 (the project was delivered late, quality complaints were made shortly after delivery, etc.), then it remains hidden. Otherwise, it is made visible again. Please note that this is the usual procedure we follow in these cases.

It is because of this that Blue Board related issues may be analysed on a case by case basis. In order to take a further look at these issues, please remember that the full correspondence between service providers and outsourcers must be submitted in a support request.

We have now received the correspondence you sent, so please allow us some time to check this in depth.

By the way, Sheila, thanks for your concern regarding the missing posts related to the synchronization of the thread. I confirm that no posts were hidden in this thread, rather this is a problem that sometimes occurs when threads are moved from one forum to another. We are already aware of this issue and we will look for ways to improve this issue if possible.

Best regards,

Paula


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Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 07:29
English to Croatian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, Paula. Aug 3, 2016

But that doesn't quite match up.

My entry was added when they were 7 days overdue (my standard procedure)
Then they said they lacked funds and the end client was to blame, but would surely pay me within the next 60 days
Then they went silent for a month
Then they came back on the third month with alleged quality issues (is this shortly after delivery, 3 months on?)
Then they went silent again avoiding communication
Then they contested my entry on the fifth month?

This doesn't follow up with what you quoted, knowing my entry has gone/disappeared. They now have average score of 4,7 (without my entry) and have been banned at the same time. How does 4,7 score coupled with a ban make sense?


[Edited at 2016-08-03 14:02 GMT]


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Jacqueline Sieben  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 07:29
Dutch to English
+ ...
Entry does even not show up! Aug 3, 2016

About a month ago I posted a negative entry because the LSP had mixed up badly, causing me to have translated parts of a large document for which I would not receive any payment. Proz failed to post this entry. I have sent them an email asking why my entry was not posted, but to no avail. Very worrying, to say the least.

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Jessica Noyes  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:29
Spanish to English
+ ...
Translator guilty until proving him/herself innocent Aug 3, 2016

This policy favors the client over the translator, because the translator is required to make the effort to prove that the client did not pay, and likewise prove that he/she is innocent of submitting poor work. During this time (how long I have no idea), the low score is removed---or hidden, it's the same thing, and the client can continue merrily contracting with new translators. Since ProZ.com is a website for translators, then I believe their comments should stand until the outsourcer can provide proof of either payment or poor work. The policy as it stands would make any translator hesitate before posting a "1" to guide colleagues.

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Soonthon LUPKITARO(Ph.D.)  Identity Verified
Thailand
Local time: 13:29
Member (2004)
English to Thai
+ ...
Non-payments with allegation of bad translation quality Aug 3, 2016

Lingua 5B wrote:

Is the alleged quality issue an ultimate card to pull for any outsourcer with really bad reputation?



Quality issue is rather subjective. I met with claims from agencies on my alleged bad translation quality. I actually agencies hire outsiders to evaluate translation irresponsibly. In worse case, agencies themselves cannot read my translation target language e.g. Thai, Japanese.
I am usually surprised with decision of Proz and I recently avoid to make any entries regarding non-payments with allegation of bad translation quality since I understand that Proz takes priorities for agencies.

Soonthon L.


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Paula Durrosier  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 03:29
English to Spanish
+ ...
On the Blue Board record, how it works and ProZ.com termination policy Aug 3, 2016

Hello everyone,

Thanks for the response and for the details, Lingua 5B. As I mentioned in my reply, Blue Board related issues are analyzed on a case by case basis, always keeping the conditions for making those entries elaborated in Blue Board site rule #2, http://www.proz.com/siterules/general/2#2 , in mind when doing so. In the case you point out here, it would initially appear that the outsourcer did not make this quality complaint ​shortly​ after delivery. Quality complaints are only valid when they are made by the outsourcer shortly after delivery of the work. I am looking into your private correspondence now on this issue, and will respond on this point in the corresponding support request.

As for your last point, please keep in mind that ProZ.com's termination policy is carried out no matter the Blue Board rating of a particular outsourcer. The Blue Board rating of a particular outsourcer simply reflects the service provider's personal willingness of working again with them in an scale of 1 to 5. If the outsourcer has two non-payment reports, then they are blocked from posting jobs or contacting translators on the site until all non-payment reports on their record are resolved. I think this may also address the issue you bring up, Jessica. Outsourcers are not automatically allowed to post jobs again if a non-payment report on their Blue Board record is contested. The block remains while the entry is being looked into, and, as I said, all non-payment reports must be resolved in order for their rights to be restored. For more information, please see the site's termination policy: http://www.proz.com/termination_policy . Moreover, to read more about how the Blue Board record works, you can refer to the article 'Using the ProZ.com Blue Board', here http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/3491/

Finally, to address Jacqueline's point, I see that the entry you are referring to contained language that specifically discourages others from working with this outsourcer. I also see that you were asked via support request to repost your entry for that outsourcer, avoiding content of that nature, so that your entry would be in line with http://www.proz.com/faq/2995#2995 . Specifically, your entry should be focused on your own specific willingness to work again with the particular outsourcer and not contain any generalizations or explicit discouragement of others from working with the company. You are still welcome to repost your entry accordingly and continue your conversation with site staff via your support request on the issue.

Thank you all for your feedback and please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

Best regards,

Paula


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