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Bid rejected - but why?
Thread poster: xxxGAK
xxxGAK  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:54
English to German
+ ...
Mar 10, 2006

I am always a bit frustrated when I receive a message like that when I bid for a job. Of course, not only about the fact that my I didn''t get the assignment but most of all because I don't know why my bid was rejected (too expensive, bad test translation, too less experience???).

Would it be asked too much if an outsourcer says why he/she rejected an offer? Of course not with long explanations. Perhaps it would be possible to create small boxes with alternatives and the outsourcer only needs to mark his/her reason(s) with a cross.

What do you think about it?

Greetings
Anett Kiefer


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Elena Pavan  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:54
Member (2005)
French to Italian
+ ...
I agree with you Mar 10, 2006

I had already posted a forum some time ago (http://www.proz.com/post/252829#252829), but the moderator changed my title and look at the answers I got.
So I decided to leave it and just concentrate on my job.
I glad to see that somebody shares my mind!


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Paul Stevens  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:54
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Agreed Mar 10, 2006

This would seem to be a very reasonable suggestion. Personally, I don't often bid for jobs on here, but when I do, if my bid is rejected, I must confess that it is a tad disappointing that no brief explanation is given. Outsourcers should not be forced to give reasons as many may be too busy or not want to use this site if this is made compulsory; but I feel that they should be encouraged to do so.

Surely proz could look at this.

[Edited at 2006-03-10 13:18]


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bohy  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 18:54
English to French
+ ...
We need feedback Mar 10, 2006

I do agree with this proposition.
We spend valuable time making bids and doing test translations. A single click per bid is not such a high price for an agency... and it would help us A LOT in making adequate offers in the future.


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:54
English to German
+ ...
Added to the wish list for the next Jobs/BB release Mar 10, 2006

Good morning all,
Thanks for the suggestion - I have added the request to the internal 'wish list' for the next Jobs/BB release.

Best regards,
Ralf


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Kimmy
Local time: 02:54
Italian to English
+ ...
But the outsourcer would spend all day responding Mar 10, 2006

Some jobs (depending on the language pair and expertise) would get hundreds of bids - or 30+ for example - and that is a lot of "reasons" to have to send back to each person who placed a bid!
Sure it's frsutrating!
But I personally don't feel it is a viable option!

Kim


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:54
English to German
+ ...
Boilerplate messages could be solution Mar 10, 2006

Hi Kimmy,
I share your concern, however...

Some jobs (depending on the language pair and expertise) would get hundreds of bids - or 30+ for example - and that is a lot of "reasons" to have to send back to each person who placed a bid!

...which is why I have added request to provide for some 'boilerplate' messages. Forum mods use the same concept to send messages referring to specific rules, so the technology is there.

Best, Ralf


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 14:54
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
I don't think they will ever answer Mar 10, 2006

I feel that most choices by the outsourcers are due to a number of concurrent reasons, and they may find difficult, or annoying, to have to fill a field wth "the reason" for their choice.
In other cases they trust their "gut feeling" and simply discard an offer for very thin and subtle reasons, including but not only, spelling mistakes in a CV or profile, claims of expertise in too many fields or too many languages, or similar niceties.
How can they express these feelings in a short field or similar feedback feature? and yet, these examples are very real...

Moreover, they may fear that the reason produced may trigger the translator into contacting them again, and ask for explanations or more details, or generally they may experience, sooner or later, someone who pester them.

Also, the outsourcers are in general very busy, running against multiple deadlines and juggling many tasks, even worse, if possible, than the average translator. I've worked in a large agency and I know how short of time can be a project manager.

The net result is that the outsourcers will not like this feature, it is not useful for them, and in most cases they will not use it anyway.

bye
Gianfranco


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:54
English to German
+ ...
Option that may or may not be used Mar 10, 2006

Hi Gianfranco

The net result is that the outsourcers will not like this feature, it is not useful for them, and in most cases they will not use it anyway.

Agreed. But then, they would at least have the option of using it - with an opportunity to build a relationship with good service providers, even if they did not want to use the services in the case at hand.

Best regards,
Ralf


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Uldis Liepkalns  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 19:54
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
Gianfranco is right Mar 10, 2006

Being an outsourcer, I can say I'm very short of time and I give job to the first bidder who qualifies. So rejecting others mean only that there were more bidders than jobs, it doesn't mean other bidders were worse or anything, nor do I have time to analyze all other applicants after I have found the first one suited.

Uldis

Gianfranco Manca wrote:

I feel that most choices by the outsourcers are due to a number of concurrent reasons, and they may find difficult, or annoying, to have to fill a field wth "the reason" for their choice.

Also, the outsourcers are in general very busy, running against multiple deadlines and juggling many tasks, even worse, if possible, than the average translator. I've worked in a large agency and I know how short of time can be a project manager.


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 19:54
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
It's different... Mar 10, 2006

Gianfranco Manca wrote:
...the outsourcers are in general very busy, running against multiple deadlines and juggling many tasks, even worse, if possible, than the average translator. I've worked in a large agency and I know how short of time can be a project manager.


Dear Gianfranco, while I totally agree with your arguments, I think the point of discussion is slightly different.

I've seen many good job postings in which outsourcers warned politely that they won't be able to provide feedback to every bid. After finding the right professional for their project they simply closed the job ad. By the way, before we received notifications when the job which we bade for was closed - but not anymore. I think it would be great to send such notifications.

Back to the subject:
What I mean is that an outsourcer may not use "Decline" without any explanation if they're too busy. For me, it looks like a "disagree" in KudoZ without an explanation provided.
It's better to leave a bid without any feedback whatsoever then to spend time sending the "Decline - and period!" notice.


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xxxIreneN
United States
Local time: 11:54
English to Russian
+ ...
Your mother does not work here:-) Mar 10, 2006

This slogan normally hangs in the kitchenettes and messrooms in the US companies reminding us to clean after ourselves, sort of a reality check:-)

It's all about free enterprise and free market. We are trying to sell ourselves in a harsh competitive market, and the outsourcers are not our college professors. No outsourcer will ever waste his time on any follow-ups for rejected bidders. They give jobs to the luckiest (fastest, best, cheapest etc.) without owing any explanations to anyone in the world, and that's what they are entitled to. In turn, the rest of us are supposed to pick up the pieces and keep going fighting for our place under the Sun.

Have you ever translated bids for serious industrial projects? Miltimillion dollar projects? Well, bidders spend months and tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to present their bids, and all but one get a 2-sentence letter in return - sorry, maybe next time:-)

Similar to some TV shows - if you want your tape back include 3 dollars:-). Or to the credential tests - we pay for the feedback. So should one be wanting to get a follow-up from the outsourcer, one should expect to pay for their time. Otherwise why should outsourcer waste that time? He is in a money-making business. I'm absolutely sure that you'll get the most detailed explanation as soon as you offer an outsourcer 50 bucks an hour for the job:-) IMHO.






[Edited at 2006-03-10 10:53]


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xxxGAK  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:54
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I understand ... Mar 10, 2006

Kimmy's and Gianfranco's point. I also agree that outsourcers are short of time and that they sometimes receive a huge number of bids.

But I still think that I have a right to know why my bid is rejected. If you ask several craftsmen to submit you an offer for a specific task (e.g. painting your house etc.) you normally inform him/her about the reason why you choose XY instead of XX (at least in most cases).

I think it would indeed be a good idea to offer the outsourcers at least the opportunity to give reasons why they rejected a bid. Perhaps some of them have and take the time to answer.

Greetings
Anett Kiefer


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tectranslate ITS GmbH
Local time: 18:54
German
+ ...
Decline Mar 10, 2006

Gianfranco has basically said it all. The bidding system is a great relief and timesaver for stressed-out PMs and its major advantage is that they do NOT have to talk to 27 people individually to get a single translation job done.

To Kirill I would like to say: The decline button has an important function you might not be aware of.
It "unclutters" the list of bids and makes it easier for outsourcers to track which of the bidders are still in the competition and which aren't. Once a bid is declined, the corresponding list entry "shrinks" and leaves more screen estate for the remaining bids.

So it's not an attempt at being impolite, just a means of cleaning up an often long list by removing the candidates that do not seem to fit the bill.

The major reason for us to decline bids is when the bidder fails to read our mostly elaborate postings carefully and applies even though he/she is not a native speaker, does not have the necessary equipment, does not show any relevant experience, does not provide the requested sample translation or just fails to provide even the tiniest shred of background info about him- or herself.

If people apply for a job into, say, English and start out their bid with "I translating all your document very good, cheap also", we don't really see why we'd have to comment on that - we just decline.

I haven't ever seen any of Annett's (or Elena's) bids before, so I'm not saying that's the reason in your case, just telling about our past experiences with bidders.

Benjamin


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Steffen Walter  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 18:54
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
See where you're coming from but ... Mar 10, 2006

tectranslate wrote:
If people apply for a job into, say, English and start out their bid with "I translating all your document very good, cheap also", we don't really see why we'd have to comment on that - we just decline.
Benjamin


... this could be precisely the point where a boilerplate system might be added with one or more pre-defined reasons just to be ticked off by the outsourcer (in your example, "poor/insufficient command of target language" or "not a native speaker of target language"). Would take you only a second while perhaps helping educate quoters.

My two cents worth,

Steffen

[Edited at 2006-03-10 10:48]


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