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Decline - Devil's Machine?
Thread poster: bartek

bartek  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:19
English to Polish
+ ...
Apr 26, 2004

The problem I would like to touch upon does not seem to have been discussed here before. What I have in mind may look like a triviality. It is not infrequent that Askers, decline an answer that they have been offered after just a couple of minutes on the grounds that it is beside the point. After a closer look at the declined answer, however, it quite often turns out not only to be to the point but also to be the only answer possible. This results from the fact that Askers not always know what they ask about, especially, when they are in the process of translating a text being beyond the scope of their interests or when their general knowledge does not allow even a mere thought that the answer given is possible at all.Another problem is posed by Askers who just “run across” Proz.com and who quite often have no knowledge as to how this “Devil’s Machine” is operated.On several occasions I have been asked by some of them in private messages about the way in which the “Accept/Decline” function should be used. Needless to add, some answers were later declined anyway and I am not talking here about the cases when an answer really deserved declining. The conclusion is that either there is something unclear about the “Accept/Decline” , or... well, I do not know what.Hence my suggestion is to deny non-member users the right to decline answers to their questions. Another idea, worth giving a thought in my opinion, is to disable the decline function during the first 24 hours after the question has been asked no matter whether by a Proz member or not. That would give decline-happy Askers some time to either do some own research concerning the question and the answer being given or just to calm down.

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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 07:19
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Occassional users Apr 26, 2004

According to my observations, the autograding robot still grades winning answers (the largest number of agrees but no less than 2 agress) not regarding "decline" if a question was asked by a non-member.

I do not know if it's ok or not, but it's true. As for me, I would deny non-members the right to grade their question. Members are translators, non-members by definition are not, so they cannot judge the quality of any answer.


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:19
Member (2004)
English to Italian
to be a translator or not... Apr 26, 2004

Kirill Semenov wrote:

Members are translators, non-members by definition are not, so they cannot judge the quality of any answer.


Non members are not translators? Well, they can well be. They've just chosen to exploit the site, which is allowed. Anyway, to answer Bartek's question... after over 6000 KudoZ points, I'm surprised that you are still amazed at the lack of professional skills of some askers. I know a lady who's posted over 1500 questions in my language pairs (en>it) and she calls herself a professional translator. Really? But this the nature of the site. Take it or leave it.

Have a nice evening.

Giovanni

[Edited at 2004-04-26 20:24]


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 07:19
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Pros & non_Pros Apr 26, 2004

Yes, it may be not forbidden by rules. As well as it is not forbidden, say, to put disagrees on each and every answer in many questions in a row. It's not forbidden explicitly but we all understand it's an abuse. As for me, if a professional translator (not a schoolboy who needs help in his or her homework) requires some kudoZ help, he/she has no reasons to not register and ask questions anonimously.

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Non members are not translators? Well, they can well be. They've just chosen to exploit the site, which is allowed.


Unfortunately, in most cases, non-members do not know any foreigh language well enough and are not competent enough to choose wisely among answers.

[Edited at 2004-04-26 20:34]

[Edited at 2004-04-27 05:24]


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xxxIreneN
United States
Local time: 23:19
English to Russian
+ ...
I find Decline option rude and useless Apr 26, 2004

Somebody spent his/her own time and tried to help me and did not manage to do a perfect job. So? For me this is no reason to play smarthead. I honestly do not understand the point of this option. We show our understanding of the subject by not choosing the wrong answer, we also have a chance to add a note.

I can see a great use in a civilized and well-grounded disagree, I would only be thankful and regard it as a timely advice or extra push to double-check, but why do we need Decline at all?


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lim0nka  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 05:19
Member (2004)
English to Polish
some examples Apr 26, 2004

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/536744
comment: ?I appreciated your response, you must have misunderstood me
The answer given was correct.

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/549530
Answer declined.
No comment was given.

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/431635
Quite an interesting one. The asker (a registered ProZ.com user) didn’t provide any context, thanked to all who had contributed and then squashed the only answer (and the right one!).

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/349543
Comment: thank you, it’s not the correct term
So what is? We don’t know. Even if the asker found the correct answer, he didn’t want to share it with us.
Again, the asker is a registered ProZ.com user

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/542961
The asker wanted his last name (Borowski) to be translated into English (which was impossible, as that name doesn’t mean anything) and declined the answer only because he read it translated to “six-pack”.

My suggestion is:
Can the possibility to decline answers be limited to the registered ProZ.com users who have, say, 100 or 500 kudoz and know what ProZ is all about?

Anetta


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Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:19
French to English
24 hours seems reasonable, but I'd rather it was removed. Apr 26, 2004

I would actually like to see both Accept and Decline disabled for the first 24 hours - too often one sees 'wrong' answers accepted in the first 10 minutes.

Even if the asker NEEDS the answer in 10 minutes, I see nothing wrong with leaving the Question open for further contributions which can be valuable to both the Asker and other site users for future reference, even if the answer does come too late for the job that caused the Asker to post the original question.

In fact, to be honest, I'm not sure I see the value in "Decline" anyway. If suggestions are 'wrong', it's often because of lack of context from the Asker, who should simply add a note to the question along the lines of "thanks for your response(s) but it's not because yyyyyyyy" (where yyyyyy adds the context the Asker should have put in the first place !!)

Ultimately, "decline" is implied by "accept"ing another answer, I'm really not sure that adding an explicit "decline" button adds anything of value to the site, and indeed, seems purely to spread a certain amount of bad feeling. I think that I see the point behind the original idea, but with the benefit of hindsight and the experience of how the site is actually used, I think it would be wise to remove the option entirely.


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Lesley Clarke  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 23:19
Spanish to English
I like the decline function Apr 26, 2004

This is the second time that I have seen someone refer to the decline function as rude. I'm not quarrelling with them, but I don't see why it should be rude.

Personally, what annoys me is when people don't grade their answers. Without the decline button, as happened on a couple of occasions to me before it came into existence, I was forced to accept unacceptable answers. But I certainly do appreciate anyone taking a stab at helping me find an answer and when I decline it is certainly not with any intention of being offensive, far from it. To me it shows that the asker has taken the time and had the consideration to respond.
Please, please don't remove the decline button.


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xxxmishima
Local time: 13:19
Italian to Japanese
+ ...
I am not a platinum member... Apr 27, 2004

Kirill Semenov wrote:

Unfortunately, in most cases, non-members do not know any foreigh language well enough and are not competent enough to choose wisely among answers.

[Edited at 2004-04-26 20:34]


... but you can be certain that I am a professional. Who entitles you with the right to state who is professional and who is not? Are you sure you are a professional in the very same way you are stating that non-members are not?

Mishima


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 00:19
SITE FOUNDER
Kirill is referring to non-registered people (who are often not translators) Apr 27, 2004

mishima wrote:

Kirill Semenov wrote:

Unfortunately, in most cases, non-members do not know any foreigh language well enough and are not competent enough to choose wisely among answers.

[Edited at 2004-04-26 20:34]


... but you can be certain that I am a professional. Who entitles you with the right to state who is professional and who is not? Are you sure you are a professional in the very same way you are stating that non-members are not?

Dear Mishima,

I am certain that Kirill was referring to people who use KudoZ but are not registered with this site. (Yes, this is possible.) These people may have simply entered their KudoZ translation request from another site (like yourdictionary-dot-com). Often, these people have no background in translation.

Generally speaking, and with regard to membership, we refer to three types: non-members, registered non-paying members, and platinums.


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 07:19
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Dear Mishima Apr 27, 2004

Of course, I meant not registered members. You, me, and many others are not platinums, but we all are Proz members (and thus "pros").

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Monika Coulson  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:19
Member (2001)
English to Albanian
+ ...
Often is due to a misunderstanding from askers Apr 27, 2004

IreneN wrote: Somebody spent his/her own time and tried to help me and did not manage to do a perfect job. So? For me this is no reason to play smarthead.


I completely agree with Irene. However, with what I have seen so far, at least in my Subcommunity, declined answered have come as a result of a misunderstanding from the asker. Often askers think that they should either choose an answer, or decline it.
Monika


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xxxmishima
Local time: 13:19
Italian to Japanese
+ ...
My apology Apr 27, 2004

Kirill Semenov wrote:

Of course, I meant not registered members. You, me, and many others are not platinums, but we all are Proz members (and thus "pros").



I indeed misunderstood your message.
My apology to you and the other Proz.com members.

Mishima


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bartek  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:19
English to Polish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
another sensible idea Apr 27, 2004

lim0nka wrote:

My suggestion is:
Can the possibility to decline answers be limited to the registered ProZ.com users who have, say, 100 or 500 kudoz and know what ProZ is all about?

Anetta


Yes, it makes sense.


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lien
Netherlands
Local time: 06:19
English to French
+ ...
Rude and useless Apr 27, 2004

IreneN wrote:

I find the option rude and useless
I can see a great use in a civilized and well-grounded disagree, I would only be thankful and regard it as a timely advice or extra push to double-check, but why do we need Decline at all?



I completely agree. It is enough to choose the answer that fit you without insisting and putting down an extra turn the others ones you didn't choose.

Not so long ago, it was understood that you did not use it, only by some asker unfamiliar with the site. I am always shocked when someone not only decline an answer but feel obliged to add a comment about it. Just choose the one you want !


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