| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:32
Hebrew to English
| The only problem... | Sep 24, 2012 |
writeaway wrote:
My vote for taking away the button and have 'native language' listed as reported native language. It won't force anyone to change or backtrack on what is currently listed as native language but it will give others (ie (potential) clients et al.) the necessary heads-up.
Great suggestion.
With this is for the people who are actually being honest about their native language(s). They will go from having a "native language" to a "reported native language". Many people won't like/will resent having this shade of doubt cast onto them simply because other people can't/won't be truthful.
| | | | | Unfortunately, Ty, by the modern linguistic definitions, a language can become someone's | Sep 24, 2012 |
if the person has lived for most of their life in a place where this language is spoken, has a high level of education in this language, and has been using it almost exclusively on everyday basis.
I repeat it again, that for me personally as well for many other people and linguists, the term native language is slightly outdated. I really prefer primary language -- it is less confusing.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 20:02
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | A cat that does not catch mice... | Sep 24, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
But to return to the more general point: basically, you either accept the validity of the idea of a native speaker, or you don't. If you do, then you have to accept that it is ill-defined, unquantifiable, subjective (can only be judged by other native speakers of the same language, not by outsiders). If you can't accept these facts about nativeness, then you're probably better off rejecting it altogether, because trying to firm up a precise definition is beyond the ability of anyone here.
You rightly question the very validity of the native speaker idea, and why not? If the idea does not contribute fruitfully towards solution, there is nothing inherently sacrosanct in it to compel us to persist with it.
The idea of native language is specific to a Euro-American world-view which is based on nationalistic ideas and mono-lingual societies. It has no parallels in many other societies and parts of the world. Even the concept of native language does not exist in many languages, Hindi being one of them.
When proz.com started out two decades ago (or was it more?), the world was a different place. And the proz.com of then was entirely different to what it has become now. It started off I think in Japan (another mono-lingual, uniform culture society) and mostly had members from other similar monolingual countries of Europe and then the US. In those days, when neither had China emerged as a major economy nor had the other south-Asian tigers, and India was still a basket case, barely managing to keep off famine from its shores, translation as it happened then was largely a Euro-American affair. Many of the fundamental assumptions on which the site is based were made on this limited experience.
As both the world economy and the site expanded in subsequent years, many of these assumptions have begun to become less and less relevant and applicable to current situations. The native language assumption of proz.com is a classic example. We need to accept this reality and question these no-longer relevant original assumptions.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:32
Hebrew to English
| Again? Really? | Sep 24, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
You rightly question the very validity of the native speaker idea, and why not? If the idea does not contribute fruitfully towards solution, there is nothing inherently sacrosanct in it to compel us to persist with it.
But Phil isn't questioning the validity of it himself, I thought that was pretty clear when he said:
Phil Hand wrote:
Being subjective and a bit difficult to define isn't a flaw in a native test. It's the very nature of the beast. It is precisely because language is such an amazingly deep and weird phenomenon - beyond the scope of any quantitative test yet devised - that the concept of native still has any use. If language tests did the business, then we would all be proudly displaying our TOEFL/IELTS/whatever scores on our profile pages, and that would be the end of it.
But that's not what happens. We still talk about native language - despite the fact that no-one has a clear definition for it - and native speakers are still an important part of any language quality assurance system.
Remind me Bala, what is it you said about misquotation? Oh yeah...
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
It smacks of dishonesty to quote only that portion of a source that is in conformity with one's own views.
And then...
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
and India was still a basket case
You said it!
[Edited at 2012-09-24 10:14 GMT]
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| Yes, I agree with you Belasubramanian. | Sep 24, 2012 |
Even in the US, the main language you speak is more and more often referred to as primary language these days, because native really carries other implications in addition to being a rather vague term. Also, no standard is required in many places -- all varieties are precious. Of course you cannot speak any form of extreme slang in many offices, but otherwise many things are allowed.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 20:02
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Standard version of a language by another door... | Sep 24, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Kirsten
I would think, with regard to Dutch, that being a speaker of a non-prestige dialect would make the question "are you a native" extremely simple. Relatively few people learn non-prestige dialects, so if you're speaking one, you're almost 100% certain to be a native.
In another of your post, you had pooh-poohed the very idea of a standard version of a language. Here you are implying something very similar.
Call it prestige-dialect if you like, but a standard version exists in every language, and it is something that is used in most translation. All professional writers and translators aspire to use the standard version of their language.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:32
Hebrew to English
LilianBoland wrote:
Even in the US, the main language you speak is more and more often referred to as primary language these days, because native really carries other implications in addition to being a rather vague term. Also, no standard is required in many places -- all varieties are precious. Of course you cannot speak any form of extreme slang in many offices, but otherwise many things are allowed.
Liliana, this thread might be long, but so is my memory. I've already provided contradictory evidence to this claim of yours on this very thread. Do I really have to go fetch it? :-/
| | | | Tony M
France
Local time: 16:32
Member
French to English
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Cats, mice... and horses for courses | Sep 24, 2012 |
Bala has raised an important point, that the world is changing, and the situation is different in many countries.
However Euro- and Americo-centric it may seem, the fact remains that a great deal of translation into the only language I know anything about, EN, needs to be for a European / American readership, and hence meet the standards prevailing in those zones. It would be madness to suggest that the rest of the world should accept some kind of 'pidgin English' — and we see the... See more Bala has raised an important point, that the world is changing, and the situation is different in many countries.
However Euro- and Americo-centric it may seem, the fact remains that a great deal of translation into the only language I know anything about, EN, needs to be for a European / American readership, and hence meet the standards prevailing in those zones. It would be madness to suggest that the rest of the world should accept some kind of 'pidgin English' — and we see the results every day in the 'Chinglish' instruction manuals supplied with so many modern appliances etc. — which would be laughable, were it not for their very real potential to be dangerous.
As I have already suggested above, maybe instead of providing more levels of 'native proficiency', we should instead work towards a finer breakdown of languages, so that for example those Indians who so wish can claim to be native in Indian EN, but not European EN. That way, customers (who may not themselves speak EN at all) can be reasonably certain to be able to select a translator suitable for their intended target readership.
We really cannot adopt the head-in-the-sand approach which would hold that the problem does not exist — it is very clear from this thread, and many others, that it is a very real preoccupation, and we can argue till the cows come home about global linguistics; the fact is we have a growing problem that urgently needs to be addressed. ▲ Collapse
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:32
Hebrew to English
| Practice what you preach | Sep 24, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
someone's native language is also the language the person speaks best and/or uses the most. You cannot create your own definitions and want them to be generally accepted. Of course you could, but only for your own research papers purposes, and for personal use.
Liliana, this is exactly what you are doing though. Native Language is not necessarily the language one uses the most. Many ex-pats abroad may speak more of their L2 than their L1 in their day-to-day lives, but this doesn't mean that their native language has suddenly shifted because they have geographically.
None (or not many) of the "pro-verification lobby" seem interested in redefining the term as far as I can tell. Me personally, I'm perfectly happy to keep the dictionary one; the one that's already generally accepted.
What I've noticed is that it is the "anti-verification lobby" (well, a certain sub-section of it) who are more interested in redefining the term native language in order to legitimately claim "x" as their native language.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:32
Hebrew to English
| Surrealism (2) | Sep 24, 2012 |
Amel Abdullah wrote:
The other day, for example, I discovered a colleague proclaiming in his profile that he had achieved native proficiency in English by surfing the Internet and participating in on-line chats.
I had to go back and retrieve this gem, thanks Amel! You've illustrated perfectly the kind of surrealism we face with this problem!
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:32
Hebrew to English
LilianBoland wrote:
by the modern linguistic definitions, a language can become someone's if the person has lived for most of their life in a place where this language is spoken, has a high level of education in this language, and has been using it almost exclusively on everyday basis.
I repeat it again, that for me personally as well for many other people and linguists, the term native language is slightly outdated. I really prefer primary language -- it is less confusing.
Which "modern linguistic definitions"? Where can I see these "definitions"?
Which "many other people and linguists"? Where can I read their opinions which coincide with yours? (Apart from that obscure German-Brazilian guy you trotted out before).
[Edited at 2012-09-24 11:37 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:32
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Nope, way off I'm afraid. | Sep 24, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
The idea of native language is specific to a Euro-American world-view which is based on nationalistic ideas and mono-lingual societies. It has no parallels in many other societies and parts of the world. Even the concept of native language does not exist in many languages, Hindi being one of them.
When proz.com started out two decades ago (or was it more?), the world was a different place. And the proz.com of then was entirely different to what it has become now. It started off I think in Japan (another mono-lingual, uniform culture society) and mostly had members from other similar monolingual countries of Europe and then the US.
Founded 13 years ago in 1999, in the U.S. (if i'm not mistaken).
Mr Balasubramaniam, you really need to come and visit Europe and the U.S. to see these bizarre "monolingual societies" you keep referring to.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 16:32
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Other categories | Sep 24, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
And my question remains unanswered: would anyone presently claiming to be a native speaker in a given language adjust this claim if there were more options than only are and aren't?
We can only guess, but after having looked at the first results in the list of English-Dutch translators who claim English as a native language, and checking their résumés (where available), I came to the conclusion that quite a few of them would be likely to change their status of English nativeness if a high-proficiency category was made available.
My assumption is that a translator is less likely to lie on his résumé, so if his résumé says or implies that English is not his native language, then the native declaration on his ProZ.com profile is likely for reasons of not having a suitable category.
17 out of the first 25 profiles had résumés that I could check. Only a few of them stated that English is their native native language -- several people stated that their English has "high proficiency" or "native proficiency" or "strong skill" or "fully bilingual" even though the résumés imply that Dutch alone is the real native language.
An interesting thing is that quite a few of them distinguished clearly between "native language" and "mother tongue" (saying e.g. that Dutch is their mother tongue and English is their native language), which leads me to believe that this interpretation of "native language" versus "mother tongue" is possibly something common.
A small number of them spent only a short while in the UK or US, but claims English nativeness nonetheless. Some of them do not claim English nativeness in their résumés even though they do claim it on their ProZ.com profiles. A large number of them were born in the Netherlands and moved to the US, UK, OZ, Canada or Mexico during or shortly after their college years.
I get the impression that there is a lot of honesty in these résumés, judged by the way they qualify their statements.
Having examined these résumés I'm confident that many of them would reclassify themselves as "bilingual" or as "native proficient", if those categories existed. I can't vouch for whether those who do claim native proficiency would in fact be native proficient, but that was not your question.
==
I did a similar experiment with Chinese/English résumés, and found that practically none of the Chinese résumés make any mention of native languages whatsoever, though from the content it was fairly clear that many of them had spent time in English countries only during adulthood.
==
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
I thought you were referring to my post on the 22nd entitled "Difference between mother tongue and native language".
No, I just read the posts in that section of the thread and posted my opinion about the issue -- my post was not intended as a direct response to your post.
Samuel
[Edited at 2012-09-24 12:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-09-24 12:21 GMT]
| | | | | Interesting approach | Sep 24, 2012 |
@Sammuel. That's an interesting approach. I just looked up a couple of people participating in this thread who include native English in their profiles and then play it down somewhat in their 'about me' sections and/or CVs, so I assume such people would also love to see a 'highly proficient' or suchlike category included (even though 'highly proficient' would still be a stretch, if the writing in some profiles is anything to go on).
And just out of interest, would you personally se... See more @Sammuel. That's an interesting approach. I just looked up a couple of people participating in this thread who include native English in their profiles and then play it down somewhat in their 'about me' sections and/or CVs, so I assume such people would also love to see a 'highly proficient' or suchlike category included (even though 'highly proficient' would still be a stretch, if the writing in some profiles is anything to go on).
And just out of interest, would you personally see the benefit in being able to classify your command of English up at the top of the profile page? Or does everybody assume like I do that if you're from SA you're quite likely to speak nearly-native (if not native) English?
[Edited at 2012-09-24 12:29 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Meanwhile back in 2007.... on 'what's missing' | Sep 24, 2012 |
Olly Pekelharing wrote:
@Sammuel. That's an interesting approach. I just looked up a couple of people participating in this thread who include native English in their profiles and then play it down somewhat in their 'about me' sections and/or CVs, so I assume such people would also love to see a 'highly proficient' or suchlike category included (even though 'highly proficient' would still be a stretch, if the writing in some profiles is anything to go on).
And just out of interest, would you personally see the benefit in being able to classify your command of English up at the top of the profile page? Or does everybody assume like I do that if you're from SA you're quite likely to speak nearly-native (if not native) English?
[Edited at 2012-09-24 12:29 GMT]
Kim Metzger wrote:
This topic has been hashed over again and again, and I don't want to open up another discussion about abuse. It seems obvious that you don't become a native speaker of English if you move to Canada, say, as a 20-year-old and then live there for several years. Most people have one native language – their mother tongue.
I'd simply like to know if some of our members (Dutch, German, French, etc.) who declare English as their native language would not do so if other options were available. The way it stands now, a member has a choice of one native language or two native languages. Are some members now choosing English as a native language because they don't have the option of selecting near-native proficiency, for example?
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/62666-english_native_speaker.html
[Edited at 2012-09-24 12:57 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-09-24 13:23 GMT]
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