| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? Thread poster: XXXphxxx (X)
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| There is really a big misunderstanding here | Jun 28, 2012 |
I am sorry, Lisa, but what one language are you talking about? Bilingual, or trilingual people may speak all languages at almost the same level. They may have spoken one or two language in their childhoods -- in many countries people speak more than one language naturally, because one language may be their ethic language, whereas the other would be the official language of the country. Then, they could have moved to another country at a young age, their husband could speak yet another language. ... See more I am sorry, Lisa, but what one language are you talking about? Bilingual, or trilingual people may speak all languages at almost the same level. They may have spoken one or two language in their childhoods -- in many countries people speak more than one language naturally, because one language may be their ethic language, whereas the other would be the official language of the country. Then, they could have moved to another country at a young age, their husband could speak yet another language. What one native language do you have in mind? Bilingual or trilingual people do not have just one native language. You are just assuming that people speak one language. This is not true in many cases.
Hi, Phil.
I really believe that allowing just one native language in the profile is totally wrong. Many translators are bilingual, or even trilingual. They cannot lie. Why should they hide it, if it is also an asset? ▲ Collapse
| | | | DavidMTucker (X)
United States
Local time: 12:42
Spanish to English
| Somewhat confused | Jun 28, 2012 |
I am somewhat confused. I have read the threads and tried to make sense out of this, and must apologize because I fail to see where this is going, or where it is coming from for that matter. If, and only if I am understanding the overall thread...,
1) It is felt that some are incorrectly (whether intentionally or not) placing more than one "native" language in their profile, when it appears that said language is not their "native" language.
2) It is felt that by doing t... See more I am somewhat confused. I have read the threads and tried to make sense out of this, and must apologize because I fail to see where this is going, or where it is coming from for that matter. If, and only if I am understanding the overall thread...,
1) It is felt that some are incorrectly (whether intentionally or not) placing more than one "native" language in their profile, when it appears that said language is not their "native" language.
2) It is felt that by doing this there is an unfair advantage.
3) Due to (1) and (2), there needs to be some type of verification process.
Do I have the basic overall concept of what is going on, aside from the native verses mother tongue, verses proficiency that has been intertwined within the thread?
If, and only if I have the basics down, it seems that the biggest concern is #2 --unfair advantage. This then brings me to my next question -- Are there any facts (data perhaps?) to show that by committing (1) the person is getting more jobs, i.e, taking jobs away from others?
In other words, I am trying to take emotion out of the equation to understand the reason for the verification process of who claims what as their native language.
Personally (the emotional response because I have no proof), I don't think it matters if the person claims 100 "native" languages. As was stated earlier, they might get a job or two but the end client will quickly know that their skills (language proficiency, translation, etc.) are not up to par and so, they will simply eliminate themselves.
David Martin Tucker (Spanish Interpreter)
http://www.spanishdavid.com
https://www.facebook.com/SpanishDavid
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmartintucker
http://www.twitter.com @DavidMTucker ▲ Collapse
| | | | | My reasoning runs thuslywise | Jun 28, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
...because Samuel thinks confirmed and verified are different. Did I say that? Where?
Because throughout the thread, we (in general) have been talking about "verified" and the yellow "N" in the same breath, leading me, and, I'd confidently state, many others, to treat the two as synonymous. It turns out the actual word used by the site is "confirmed". So be it.
And when I claimed to be verified, you took huge delight in pointing out (in a tone I found patronising and which, I will confess, annoyed me slightly), that I wasn't. I was merely probably not a liar on the balance of probabilities (I paraphrase!).
And yet verified is a term you yourself have also used in the course of the thread.
I was therefore forced to conclude that when you say verified, you don't mean what I mean (=yellow "N"; "confirmed" in the site's own terms) and that therefore you think verified and confirmed, in the context of this thread, are diferent.
| | | | | Speaking entirely for myself | Jun 28, 2012 |
Although I don't think I'm entirely alone
DavidMTucker wrote:
I am somewhat confused. I have read the threads and tried to make sense out of this, and must apologize because I fail to see where this is going, or where it is coming from for that matter. If, and only if I am understanding the overall thread...,
It is an epic, isn't it?
1) It is felt that some are incorrectly (whether intentionally or not) placing more than one "native" language in their profile, when it appears that said language is not their "native" language.
So far, so good, I think....
2) It is felt that by doing this there is an unfair advantage.
As I think you say, in essence, the market should sort them out. It probably doesn't entirely, if only because in some cases, the client may be unaware what they've bought (see, for example, the execrable rubbish printed in tourist brochures the world over purporting to be English, ordered by, "translated" by and then printed by non-natives). However, I do hold the view, which without putting words into your mouth I think you may do, that if I, as a native speaker, cannot find a place in the market, then I'm probably doing it wrong.
No, the reason I'm supporting this (in the face of previous experience that shows I might be wasting my time), is to attempt to raise the overall integrity of profiles on the site, such that mine doesn't get tarred with the same brush as those known to telling lies about the attributes of their owners. So that all of us with profiles here benefit from being associated with a site with a good reputation for professional translators, not as clearing house for chancers and liars.
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 21:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Apologies to Charlie | Jun 28, 2012 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I was ... forced to conclude that when you say verified, you don't mean what I mean (=yellow "N"; "confirmed" in the site's own terms) and that therefore you think verified and confirmed, in the context of this thread, are diferent.
Well, sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't realise that the way I presented the argument would lead to that conclusion. To me, the terms "verified" and "confirmed" in this context would mean the same thing. Your native language is labelled neither "verified" nor "confirmed", as far as I can see. I don't say this with glee but simply because I'm trying to see exactly what you see.
If you believe that the site says that a yellow icon means "confirmed", then I have to either disagree or ask that you quote to me where the site says that, because I'm under the impression that the site does not actually say that. I'm not calling you a liar -- I'm just a bit baffled.
And when I claimed to be verified, you took huge delight in pointing out (in a tone I found patronising and which, I will confess, annoyed me slightly), that I wasn't. I was merely probably not a liar on the balance of probabilities (I paraphrase!).
I did not realise that my tone would come across as patronising. My post seems neutral to me, but I'm not a native English speaker (arggghh... can't believe I just used that excuse, heh-heh), so I apologise -- I was trying to point out the misconception in a factual way with just a glint of humour.
My comment about the real meaning of the yellow icon ("not a liar on the balance of probabilities") was not meant as a comment about you but as a comment about the yellow icon.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 21:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| How to see the "unfair" advantage | Jun 28, 2012 |
DavidMTucker wrote:
Are there any facts (data perhaps?) to show that by [placing more than one "native" language in one's profile] the person is getting more jobs, i.e, taking jobs away from others?
Here is one way to see it in action:
Simply do a directory search for any major language combination, select "top or only pair", and select the *source* language as the native language.
Then try to spot which translators have declared only that one language as their native language. You can see that in the "NL/country" column: if one language was declared, the language name is written out in full, but if multiple languages were declared, their abbreviations are used.
If we assume for a moment that a translator with one native language will have more nativeness than a translator with two or three native languages, then you can see why the search result can be viewed as unfair, since those who declare only one language are not listed at the top.
A person with two native languages will be matched in directory searches for both languages, giving him twice the odds (or is that half the odds?) of getting selected.
If a certain field has translators in it that specialise in that field, then they may view it as unfair if translators who are not specialists in that field adapt their profiles so that they come up in searches for that specialisation, thereby taking away some of the real specialists' bread.
I'm not saying I agree with all of this, but I am saying that you can see it if you want to look at it.
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What a chaotic discussion(s)!
Native language is one thing.
Competence to translate into a non-native language is another.
Please separate the two.
| | | | | 28 pages and counting | Jun 29, 2012 |
Hi Cilian. I think it’s called 'filibustering'.
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Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 21:42
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
| After 414 posts | Jun 29, 2012 |
...discussing this, I believe a "native speaker of Scouse" icon is required. This alone would deter would-be scousers from usurping what is rightly mine.
Applicants for the icon would have to demonstrate a flair for malapropisms, for pronouncing "ck" as in "loch" - (eg. " Whot yudoing? Dats me boooch!! Not yorz!"), and other requisites to be determined at some future date.
Or, of course, Jared et al. could come up with a workable idea.
(PS. I've been a ... See more ...discussing this, I believe a "native speaker of Scouse" icon is required. This alone would deter would-be scousers from usurping what is rightly mine.
Applicants for the icon would have to demonstrate a flair for malapropisms, for pronouncing "ck" as in "loch" - (eg. " Whot yudoing? Dats me boooch!! Not yorz!"), and other requisites to be determined at some future date.
Or, of course, Jared et al. could come up with a workable idea.
(PS. I've been a member/user/whatever since 2001 and didn't even know these icons existed)
[Edited at 2012-06-29 01:05 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 03:42
Chinese to English
| Lillian, David, all | Jun 29, 2012 |
1) Lillian - fair point. I, at least, am completely willing to see this from your perspective, and I agree, it is a problem to restrict people to one native language. Please will you try and see it from my perspective, and see that at the moment there is a problem. (This is not a binary question - restricting to just one native language is not the only possible solution, so please don't get hung up on that one solution.) The problem right now is that a significant number of people are misreprese... See more 1) Lillian - fair point. I, at least, am completely willing to see this from your perspective, and I agree, it is a problem to restrict people to one native language. Please will you try and see it from my perspective, and see that at the moment there is a problem. (This is not a binary question - restricting to just one native language is not the only possible solution, so please don't get hung up on that one solution.) The problem right now is that a significant number of people are misrepresenting (lying about) their native languages on their profiles. Do you think that's OK? If not, do you have any ideas about what Proz could do about it?
2) David - it's more about maintaining the credibility of the site. To summarise arguments I've made above: I choose to advertise through Proz; I tell people through my Proz profile information that I'm an English native speaker; but a lot of people who say that in my pair are not real native speakers; outsourcers/clients therefore cannot trust the true information that I am giving. Misrepresentation by others on this site damages the credibility of my information, and it further muddies my already muddy pair.
3) All - I had a reply from Lucia yesterday about my snitch. I reported a user who has an unverified claim of English (and one other language), and Lucia asked for "more evidence" I gave it to her as best I can, and am waiting on any further progress.
I might just say, that I *hate* this process. I feel like a complete **** doing this to a colleague. Feels like the worst of all possible worlds to me. It can only be an interim solution, because I did not sign up to police the people I think of as my fellows. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 21:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Comments about the thread | Jun 29, 2012 |
Cilian O'Tuama wrote:
What a chaotic discussion(s)!
Native language is one thing.
Competence to translate into a non-native language is another.
Please separate the two.
A fair number of posts are comments about the confusion between the two. Perhaps those posts should have been placed in a separate thread too
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:42
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | "Britain's Got Talent" (please feel free to localise) | Jun 29, 2012 |
Andrew Swift wrote:
Hi Cilian. I think it’s called 'filibustering'.
What is quite astonishing is that people with two declared native languages, one of which is English, protest the loudest (in flawed and most definitely "non-native" English). I must add that I don't speak a word of German, but while discussing this thread, a colleague introduced me to the term "Fremdscham", "vergüenza ajena" in Spanish or, I suppose, "vicarious embarassment" in English. I'm experiencing a lot of that at the moment.
Looking on the bright side, I have noticed that 16500+ views later one person has voluntarily removed their English tag so perhaps the message is starting to get through...
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 21:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Another suggestion: "top or only native language" (my 40th post) | Jun 29, 2012 |
Phil Hand wrote:
I tell people through my Proz profile information that I'm an English native speaker; but a lot of people who say that in my pair are not real native speakers; outsourcers/clients therefore cannot trust the true information that I am giving.
One problem is that even if outsourcers feel more comfortable trusting a translator who declares only one source language, there is currently no way to "filter out" the other translators in a ProZ.com search.
Clients can select whether a language combination is the "top or only" language combination offered, so why not do the same for native language? Allow clients to specify next to native language "top or only native language" in directory searches, Kudoz and job posts.
I include "top" in my suggestion to be slightly fairer to those who genuinely have multiple native languages. Remember, when translators fill in their profiles for the first time, they are not made aware of the possibility of multiple native languages, so the first native language that a transltor declares is often his "main" or real native language. Only later when he discovers that other translators have multiple native languages does he consider adding his second language as another "native language", and by that time his first declared native language is already the "top" one. You can be sure that Staff won't just accept requests for native language order switching willy-nilly when this suggestion is ever implemented. This is why I believe "top or only native language" (instead of just "only native language") is unlikely to susceptible to a lot of abuse.
This suggestion can be implemented immediately without redesigning the existing native language system in ProZ.com or waiting for the verification system to be completed.
==
Added: After thinking about this, I realised that since the order of the native language were never meant to be an issue, it is quite likely that Staff who added these may have added them in a different order than the translator originally declared them. So perhaps the label should read: "Number of native languages" with the dropdown box saying "Any | Only one | More than one".
[Edited at 2012-06-29 08:40 GMT]
| | | | | And on the flip side of the coin...... | Jun 29, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
Looking on the bright side, I have noticed that 16500+ views later one person has voluntarily removed their English tag so perhaps the message is starting to get through...
I noticed one person who has now added 'dual nationality' (without stating which 2nd country) to try to bolster his fraudulent claim of (also) being native English. This person has not participated in this forum.
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I had a look in the directory after Samuel pointed it out (hadn't even noticed it before). Doesn't anybody else think it weird that kudoz points are taken into account in the ranking AS STANDARD? This is relevant to the native/non-native discussion, because kudoz points are one way in which almost anyone with good researching skills can rise in the ranks of a language pair, even if their mastery of the target is far from native. If that is combined with a false or misguided claim to nativeness, ... See more I had a look in the directory after Samuel pointed it out (hadn't even noticed it before). Doesn't anybody else think it weird that kudoz points are taken into account in the ranking AS STANDARD? This is relevant to the native/non-native discussion, because kudoz points are one way in which almost anyone with good researching skills can rise in the ranks of a language pair, even if their mastery of the target is far from native. If that is combined with a false or misguided claim to nativeness, then there is indeed every chance that clients will find themselves faced with poor quality work from reasonably highly ranked proz members and wondering what the directory's worth is. I would think that wwa scores or other forms of references would be more indicative, although of course these can be embellished and falsified too (I have seen at least one client dangling a favourable wwa to the translator who would take on his rush job). That and a more reliable method of verifying 'claims to nativeness'... which we still seem to be no closer to. ▲ Collapse
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