| Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4 5] > | So why doesnt Proz allow users to comment about price dumpers? Thread poster: sdvplatt
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sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:42
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
Are they in league with the devils?
An idea would be to have a web app like payscale where users can get some transparency on rates which ultimately would tend to raise average prices within the community.
Low-ballers - I can name a few- would be published not to be shamed but to make them think twice about harming their brand in this way.
Anyone interested in co-funding/developing such a site, or any translators who would be interested in such an enterprise feel... See more Are they in league with the devils?
An idea would be to have a web app like payscale where users can get some transparency on rates which ultimately would tend to raise average prices within the community.
Low-ballers - I can name a few- would be published not to be shamed but to make them think twice about harming their brand in this way.
Anyone interested in co-funding/developing such a site, or any translators who would be interested in such an enterprise feel free to message me. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I support your idea | Sep 8, 2015 |
deutschenglisch wrote:
Are they in league with the devils?
An idea would be to have a web app like payscale where users can get some transparency on rates which ultimately would tend to raise average prices within the community.
Low-ballers - I can name a few- would be published not to be shamed but to make them think twice about harming their brand in this way.
Anyone interested in co-funding/developing such a site, or any translators who would be interested in such an enterprise feel free to message me.
In another industry, price dumping made serious damage to entrepreneurs.
In Thailand, my country, the association of construction industry arranged meeting to maintain the low bid price for contractors. Now they can gain regular and helpful benefits.
Soonthon L.
| | | | Kristina Cosumano (X) 
Germany
Local time: 04:42
German to English
| Servus deutschenglish, | Sep 8, 2015 |
as a new user, I would be interested to hear what you consider included in price dumping. Is there a line under which one simply shouldn't go ? Because while I have not yet made direct bids on jobs here (I have replied a few times when e-mail was requested), I would like to avoid getting on any sort of "dumpers" list. Thanks in advance.
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| Price information and competition law | Sep 8, 2015 |
I don't know if Proz has an official explanation somewhere, but the obvious one would be the law: the US and EU both have strict laws prohibiting exchanging "price information", because that's how anti-competitive cartels form.
Back in 2008 the EU caught some banana importers exchanging information about prices with each other regularl... See more I don't know if Proz has an official explanation somewhere, but the obvious one would be the law: the US and EU both have strict laws prohibiting exchanging "price information", because that's how anti-competitive cartels form.
Back in 2008 the EU caught some banana importers exchanging information about prices with each other regularly - and hit them with a sixty million Euro fine for it! The Proz team are probably eager to avoid waking up to headlines of "Translation website fined $10m for price fixing forum". ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Technically, the translators' case is "reverse dumping" | Sep 8, 2015 |
From your definition I, in Brazil, would be dumping if I sold my EN > PT translation services at, say, (just to have a round figure) US 10¢/word to domestic clients in Brazil, and at US 7¢/word to an agency in the USA.
What would be "reverse dumping"?
While I go on selling my translations to clients in Brazil at 10¢/word, an agency in the USA learns that it is easy to find EN > HI translation services in India for US 3¢/word, so they route their US 10¢/word-paying (to the translator) job through another agency in India, where there are no EN > PT freelance translators records on Proz. Then this latter agency can say to me, We pay ALL our translators US 3¢/word, no exceptions, ever. Take it, or drop it.", and the agency in the USA can double their profit, by paying them 5¢/word.
Reverse dumping is when the client (or in-between) FORCES the vendor/translator to lower their prices, instead of asking for a bid. Of course, it is easy to blame the "poor" vendor fearful of losing business to someone who is even more afraid.
I see two kinds of translation clients:
a) Those who ask, How much would you charge me to do...; and
b) We pay $(peanuts). Take it or someone else will.
The idea would be for Proz to implement a feature whereby members could pinpoint "Type (b)" clients for all to see. While this would be a quite valuable asset to the entire translation marketplace, Proz being a commercial enterprise would not favor it. The reason is that Type (b) clients would mass-migrate to another supposedly similar portal, which displays (name, address, etc.) the following EN > PT freelance translators in India:
Minimum per word rate in EUR (not USD!) = Quantity of translators
1¢ = 3 | 2¢ = 3 | 3¢ = 6 | 4¢ = 2 | 5¢ = 2 | 6¢ = 2 | 7₢ = 0 | 8¢ = 1 | 9¢ = 0
So I think it's unlikely that Proz would support exposing "reverse dumping" players.
I have restricted this quick analysis to EN > PT, Brazil, India, and USA to show just ONE simple example, instead of a thorough study.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:42
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Depends on the use to which the information is put | Sep 8, 2015 |
James Sutherland wrote:
I don't know if Proz has an official explanation somewhere, but the obvious one would be the law: the US and EU both have strict laws prohibiting exchanging "price information", because that's how anti-competitive cartels form.
Just to clarify James' point, exchanging pricing information is not in itself a problem. It is when information is used to artificially constrain or manipulate prices in some way that it becomes a serious issue. (Viz the Libor scandal.)
For example, it's a simple fact that the investment industry depends on stock exchanges - I worked in the industry for nearly two decades - disseminating pricing information in a transparent fashion. Want to know what the market believes one share of Toyota is worth? You can find out in seconds. That's the power of exchanging price information.
If information on translation pricing were disseminated in such a way that it served to increase the transparency of the market I doubt that any set of authorities would object. Indeed, they would probably welcome the initiative, because greater transparency usually means greater efficiency.
On the other hand, swapping translation pricing information with the intention of controlling the price that customers pay would attract the attention of the authorities very quickly. Having worked alongside somebody who was informally investigated in relation to an abnormal move in the price of a certain stock (fortunately the authorities decided very early on that it was nothing to do with him) I can tell you that potential manipulators would not enjoy that scrutiny.
Regards
Dan
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 04:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
deutschenglisch wrote:
So why doesn't ProZ.com allow users to comment about price dumpers?
Because that would sour the relationship between ProZ.com and outsourcers. Remember, ProZ.com's success depends on having a good name as a "neutral" party in liaising between translators and clients.
The discussions about low prices tend to be very aggressive and sweeping on ProZ.com's forums, and if ProZ.com was to allow translators to discuss specific agencies in the forums, it would likely get very ugly very quickly.
Besides, few translators would appreciate having themselves discussed in an open forum either. Libel issues aside, imagine how it would be if agencies could discuss your translation business (professionality, rate, politeness, responsiveness, willingness to go the extra mile, etc) openly in a forum. You'd enjoy it if they said nice things... but...
An idea would be to have a web app like Payscale where users can get some transparency on rates, which ultimately would tend to raise average prices within the community.
There are those here who believe that making rates known like that would actually put pressure on rates, pushing it downwards.
==
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy)
The term "price dumping" usually refers to something quite different from what you seem to mean by the word. The normal meaning is more or less "to sell products cheaper elsewhere than locally", but from your post I gather that that's not the meaning you had intended. Am I right? I'm not sure what the correct term would be for what you're referring to (i.e. agencies offering very low rates to translators).
Or are you really referring to the fact that some translators charge much lower rates in some countries than in others? Then I would potentially be a target, because my usual rate for agencies in the USA and EU is two thirds higher than my rate for agencies in the Middle East and India/China. Am I a price dumper? I always thought that I was simply responding to market tolerances.
[Edited at 2015-09-08 11:20 GMT]
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Samuel Murray wrote:
There are those here who believe that making rates known like that would actually put pressure on rates, pushing it downwards.
That would be the legal problem, of course: as soon as it looks like applying price pressure in either direction, it would ring alarm bells about "collusion" and trigger the sort of unpleasant scrutiny mentioned earlier in this thread.
I can see advantages in more transparency: for most transactions, I can look around online and see either the asking price for products, or (like on eBay) the historical prices of individual purchases, giving an idea of the "going rate" for something. On the other hand, would you want that kind of haggling, possibly even against yourself? ("Why do you want $500 for translating this handbook? You only charged $300 for that reference book last year, and it was nearly as long...")
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 04:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| We sell hand-made products | Sep 8, 2015 |
James Sutherland wrote:
For most transactions, I can look around online and see either the asking price for products, or ... the historical prices of individual purchases, giving an idea of the "going rate" for something.
Well, I think that with translations one can't really compare the prices of different jobs, even if there was a way to make that information known. That is because translation is partly service, and the part that is "product" is hand-crafted, so commodity thinking doesn't apply.
But we still don't know what the original poster meant by "dumping".
| | | | sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:42
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
James Sutherland wrote: I don't know if Proz has an official explanation somewhere, but the obvious one would be the law: the US and EU both have strict laws prohibiting exchanging "price information", because that's how anti-competitive cartels form. Back in 2008 the EU caught some banana importers exchanging information about prices with each other regularly - and hit them with a sixty million Euro fine for it! The Proz team are probably eager to avoid waking up to headlines of "Translation website fined $10m for price fixing forum".
Hardly.
What I am saying is that everyone is aware of the average going market price- that is what these sites do anyway.
| | | | sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:42
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Samuel Murray wrote: James Sutherland wrote:
For most transactions, I can look around online and see either the asking price for products, or ... the historical prices of individual purchases, giving an idea of the "going rate" for something. Well, I think that with translations one can't really compare the prices of different jobs, even if there was a way to make that information known. That is because translation is partly service, and the part that is "product" is hand-crafted, so commodity thinking doesn't apply. Only if you see translation as a hobby not a profession - not how it is generally seen by agencies/clients. But we still don't know what the original poster meant by "dumping".
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sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:42
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | technically not dumping | Sep 8, 2015 |
but perhaps a sign of predatory pricing all the same
"the pricing of goods or services at such a low level that other firms cannot compete and are forced to leave the market."
whereupon they can gobble up market share...
Or out in another way
the familiar race to the bottom.
How low will you go?
Yes, its an old topic but this quote from a German company of EUR 0.05 was the lowest Ive seen in 11 years. They can continue paying fulltime sta... See more but perhaps a sign of predatory pricing all the same
"the pricing of goods or services at such a low level that other firms cannot compete and are forced to leave the market."
whereupon they can gobble up market share...
Or out in another way
the familiar race to the bottom.
How low will you go?
Yes, its an old topic but this quote from a German company of EUR 0.05 was the lowest Ive seen in 11 years. They can continue paying fulltime staff who are hopelessly inefficient. I mean you cant even reach them at the weekend sitting in well-lit offices with plentiful coffee and tea in the belief that freelancers will take up the slack year after year. Incorrect assumption.
One way to remedy this would be to establish a general rate which is what these sites I believe I mentioned do.. it is not price fixing. It means if freelancers wish to lowball the community they are fully aware of what they are doing (to their long-term detriment) and not out of ignorance. ▲ Collapse
| | | | sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:42
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Nice ideas.
proz is not just a commercial enterprise- Their success is based on this race-to-the-bottom model.
At some point, the exploitation will cease and that is when freelancers are able to sell their services directly online and maintain certain average rates or at least be aware of what they should be earning. They can also see how far their income gets them for the hours worked.
The disconnect I have seen in this market is the amount one can receive and the amoun... See more Nice ideas.
proz is not just a commercial enterprise- Their success is based on this race-to-the-bottom model.
At some point, the exploitation will cease and that is when freelancers are able to sell their services directly online and maintain certain average rates or at least be aware of what they should be earning. They can also see how far their income gets them for the hours worked.
The disconnect I have seen in this market is the amount one can receive and the amount others are willing to sell their labour (outsourcers). I believe this has to do with freelancers being more willing to work for less for larger companies/corporations - perhaps believing in the hope of regular future income.
Dumping was an unfortunate expression. Not what I meant in this specific case.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: From your definition I, in Brazil, would be dumping if I sold my EN > PT translation services at, say, (just to have a round figure) US 10¢/word to domestic clients in Brazil, and at US 7¢/word to an agency in the USA. What would be "reverse dumping"? While I go on selling my translations to clients in Brazil at 10¢/word, an agency in the USA learns that it is easy to find EN > HI translation services in India for US 3¢/word, so they route their US 10¢/word-paying (to the translator) job through another agency in India, where there are no EN > PT freelance translators records on Proz. Then this latter agency can say to me, We pay ALL our translators US 3¢/word, no exceptions, ever. Take it, or drop it.", and the agency in the USA can double their profit, by paying them 5¢/word. Reverse dumping is when the client (or in-between) FORCES the vendor/translator to lower their prices, instead of asking for a bid. Of course, it is easy to blame the "poor" vendor fearful of losing business to someone who is even more afraid. I see two kinds of translation clients: a) Those who ask, How much would you charge me to do...; and b) We pay $(peanuts). Take it or someone else will. The idea would be for Proz to implement a feature whereby members could pinpoint "Type (b)" clients for all to see. While this would be a quite valuable asset to the entire translation marketplace, Proz being a commercial enterprise would not favor it. The reason is that Type (b) clients would mass-migrate to another supposedly similar portal, which displays (name, address, etc.) the following EN > PT freelance translators in India: Minimum per word rate in EUR (not USD!) = Quantity of translators 1¢ = 3 | 2¢ = 3 | 3¢ = 6 | 4¢ = 2 | 5¢ = 2 | 6¢ = 2 | 7₢ = 0 | 8¢ = 1 | 9¢ = 0 So I think it's unlikely that Proz would support exposing "reverse dumping" players. I have restricted this quick analysis to EN > PT, Brazil, India, and USA to show just ONE simple example, instead of a thorough study. ▲ Collapse
| | | | sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:42
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Proz is not neutral | Sep 8, 2015 |
Samuel Murray wrote: deutschenglisch wrote:
So why doesn't ProZ.com allow users to comment about price dumpers? Because that would sour the relationship between ProZ.com and outsourcers. Remember, ProZ.com's success depends on having a good name as a "neutral" party in liaising between translators and clients. The discussions about low prices tend to be very aggressive and sweeping on ProZ.com's forums, and if ProZ.com was to allow translators to discuss specific agencies in the forums, it would likely get very ugly very quickly. Besides, few translators would appreciate having themselves discussed in an open forum either. Libel issues aside, imagine how it would be if agencies could discuss your translation business (professionality, rate, politeness, responsiveness, willingness to go the extra mile, etc) openly in a forum. You'd enjoy it if they said nice things... but... depends- there is also rate my professor. What do they feel about this I wonder? Transparency is generally good IMO - in any case the Internet has failed in this area- There is no way of reliably establishing who is telling the truth, reviews are often doctored/written by professional writers. One needs to establish credibility independently of people. This will come. An idea would be to have a web app like Payscale where users can get some transparency on rates, which ultimately would tend to raise average prices within the community. That was my idea too There are those here who believe that making rates known like that would actually put pressure on rates, pushing it downwards. Anything is possible but how do you know until it has been tried? Is probably market specific. == https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy) The term "price dumping" usually refers to something quite different from what you seem to mean by the word. The normal meaning is more or less "to sell products cheaper elsewhere than locally", but from your post I gather that that's not the meaning you had intended. Am I right? I'm not sure what the correct term would be for what you're referring to (i.e. agencies offering very low rates to translators). Or are you really referring to the fact that some translators charge much lower rates in some countries than in others? Then I would potentially be a target, because my usual rate for agencies in the USA and EU is two thirds higher than my rate for agencies in the Middle East and India/China. Am I a price dumper? I always thought that I was simply responding to market tolerances. Ok if this is the case why do Indian and Chinese outsourcers charge me rates above the norm in Europe? In my experience this is closer to the true rate of work one should be charging not what is necessarily offered. In time, one will find these clients if one can offer the quality. [Edited at 2015-09-08 11:20 GMT]
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