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Improvement of the translator directory search results
Thread poster: Regi2006

Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 22:17
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
Aug 21, 2016

Dear Support Staff,

First of all, thank you for operating the ProZ website and the support that ProZ provides its members.

Recently, I have been thinking about how the translator directory search results are sorted by the number of "Pro" KudoZ points on an all-time basis. For example, if someone tries to find English - Indonesian translators using the search feature on ProZ, then the translators who are shown at the top of the list are those with the most KudoZ points.

I think that is unfair to those new members of ProZ who purchased a ProZ membership only recently. The reason is that they would never be able to compete with those who have joined this site much earlier than them (for example, by more than 10 or 15 years apart). Therefore, they will never be able to reach the top of the search results.

Therefore, it is not a level playing field. The new members pay the same amount for their annual membership but they will always find themselves 'forever' at a disadvantage. Even though they participate actively and their answers are selected as the best answer, it is impossible to compete against those who have been answering KudoZ questions since 2005, for example.

No matter how extensively the new members answer KudoZ questions, they will forever be at the bottom of the search results on ProZ.

On the other hand, the old members who have collected enough points in the past because they joined this site many years ago will forever appear at the top of the list, even if they don't participate at all in KudoZ any more, and even though they haven't updated their availability for months.

Therefore, it would be great if the translator directory search results were based on the number of "Pro" KudoZ points on a monthly basis rather than the total from years of answering questions. Doing so would make for a level playing field for everyone in terms of "being noticed". That would also encourage new members to actively participate every month in KudoZ because the system would then allow them to be at the top of the list if they are good and active. The old members who have collected many KudoZ points should have to continue to work hard in order to maintain their position on the list. Every month would provide the opportunity to have new members at the top depending on their performance in that particular month.

It would be great if you could consider this. I wish the very best for the site.

Many thanks!

Verdi

PS: The reason I just realized this was that, recently, I was looking for an English - Arabic translator, and I used the ProZ search feature for Eng - Arabic translator. I was directed to the list of translators. At that time, I only chose to contact the first three at the top, it just happened like that because I felt that they are the best as they are at the top of the list, and they seemed to fit my requirements already. Besides, I don't have enough time to scroll down the list and check all the profiles one by one.

Then it occurred to me that the same thing might be happening to me when people are looking for Eng - Ind translators!


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Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Please refrain from discussing members personally. Thank you
CafeTran Training
Netherlands
Local time: 16:17
Get answers to forum questions rewarded too Aug 21, 2016

Thank you for bringing this up. I can see your point and I think that I agree. Let me see what Michael has to say to it .

Furthermore, I'd like to suggest a rewarding system for registered freelance translators who don't answer Kudoz questions but invest time to answer e.g. CAT related questions.


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 17:17
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
Experience Aug 21, 2016

I see your point, but if new members would get sorted according to their recent Kudoz-points that would be unfair to those "old" members. Clients often require experienced translators.
I would suggest those Kudoz-points should be divided by the membership years. Would that be fair to all?
I myself profit from the system because years ago I answered many questions but nowadays hardly bother anymore. There is seldom any Kudoz-question in my main language pair.


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Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 22:17
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Competition on a monthly basis Aug 21, 2016

Heinrich Pesch wrote:

I see your point, but if new members would get sorted according to their recent Kudoz-points that would be unfair to those "old" members.


Thanks, Heinrich. Shouldn't you like the idea that every month is a 'competition'? So, there would be leaders of the month. It got my adrenaline pumped up just by thinking about it.

And it's good for ProZ too because the KudoZ section will be active more than ever. Every one knows that they would have the same opportunity to be at the top of the list if they work for it.

After all, ProZ called the ones collecting most points as "Leader". One can't be a leader if they're afraid of 'competition'.

Besides, what about the translators who will join ProZ in the next 10 years? It would make the gap even greater with the current leaders? 24 years. So, I think it is not logical to maintain the current system.

Clients often require experienced translators

That's debatable. Just because someone is new to ProZ, it doesn't mean that they are not experienced translators. I have many colleagues with more than ten years of experiences out there. They haven't decided to join ProZ, though.

There is seldom any Kudoz-question in my main language pair.

That's another problem with the current system. I joined ProZ as a paid member in 2007. And I know that there are not many KudoZ questions today compared to six or seven years ago. My bad, all those years, I've never really realized the importance of answering questions until just recently. I wish I knew this many years ago. So much time wasted.

So, how can new members beat the current leaders if there are only a few questions to answer? How can they collect points and be at the top of the list in the search results?

Thank you.

Verdi

[Edited at 2016-08-21 11:16 GMT]


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Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 22:17
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Reputation level? Aug 21, 2016

CafeTran Training wrote:

Thank you for bringing this up. I can see your point and I think that I agree. Let me see what Michael has to say to it .

Thanks. I don't know who Michael is, but I look forward to seeing his reply to this thread.

Furthermore, I'd like to suggest a rewarding system for registered freelance translators who don't answer Kudoz questions but invest time to answer e.g. CAT related questions.

Yes, I think there should be some kind of rewards for that. Maybe something like 'Reputation' or something similar, just like what they have in general forum boards.

Thanks.

Verdi


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 16:17
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Another idea (YET another, yes I know) Aug 21, 2016

Regi2006 wrote:
1. No matter how extensively the new members answer KudoZ questions, they will forever be at the bottom of the search results on ProZ.
On the other hand, the old members who have collected enough points in the past because they joined this site many years ago will forever appear at the top of the list, even if they don't participate at all in KudoZ any more, and even though they haven't updated their availability for months.


Yes. This problem has been pointed out time and again.

Therefore, it would be great if the translator directory search results were based on the number of "Pro" KudoZ points on a monthly basis rather than the total from years of answering questions.


This suggestion is unfair to old members who have worked hard to collect their KudoZ points. If KudoZ points are used for directory ranking, then I don't think the older KudoZ points should be ignored completely. Instead, I would suggest something like this:

Let more recent KudoZ points count for more than older KudoZ points. In other words, devalue the weight of KudoZ points in the directory ranking. For example, devalue them by 20% per year.

So, if you've earned 1000 KudoZ points in 2013, 1000 points in 2014, 1000 points in 2015, and 500 points up to now in 2016, then the 500 points from 2016 would count for 500 points (i.e. 100%), the 1000 points from 2015 would count for 800 points only (1000 minus 20%), the 1000 points from 2014 would count for 640 points (800 minus 20%), and the 1000 points from 2013 would count for 512 points (640 minus 20%). Total: 500 + 800 + 640 + 512 = 2452 weighted points (instead of 3500 points in the current system).

This would encourage people to continuously contribute to KudoZ, and give a fairer chance to newer members to gain prominence in the directory results, while not unduly penalising members who have contributed more actively in the past. This would penalise members who have stopped participating in KudoZ many years ago, without punishing those who have contributed a bit more recently.


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Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 22:17
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
If we really want to see it from the perspective of the client Aug 21, 2016

Heinrich Pesch wrote:

I see your point, but if new members would get sorted according to their recent Kudoz-points that would be unfair to those "old" members. Clients often require experienced translators.

I'm sorry, I have addressed this above, but I'd like to offer another perspective since I just realized that you see this from the point of view of the client.

So, while we're at it, I think if we're really concerned about the business of the client, then these following facts, I think, are not really for the interests of the clients.

If you search for Eng - Ger translators, then you'll find these two facts from the top few in the list:

1. Not available for the whole month
2. Not participating in KudoZ for the last several months

So, if we want to be consistent in making KudoZ as some kind of indication of professionalism, not participating in it for such a long while should also affect your current state of "professionalism", in a sense that you are currently too busy working on your projects, or busy with something else in your life, which prevent you from participating on KudoZ.

If we really want too see things from the perspective of the client, they surely do not want to see profiles of translators who have high KudoZ points, but are not available.

Thanks.

Verdi


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Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 16:17
Member
English to Italian
+ ...
"KudoZ leaders" Aug 21, 2016

Regi2006 wrote:

Therefore, it would be great if the translator directory search results were based on the number of "Pro" KudoZ points on a monthly basis rather than the total from years of answering questions. Doing so would make for a level playing field for everyone in terms of "being noticed". That would also encourage new members to actively participate every month in KudoZ because the system would then allow them to be at the top of the list if they are good and active. The old members who have collected many KudoZ points should have to continue to work hard in order to maintain their position on the list. Every month would provide the opportunity to have new members at the top depending on their performance in that particular month.


Just a note to say there already is something technically similar to that, but it's in the KudoZ section: http://www.proz.com/?sp=leaders_new

Not sure if/how it could be integrated into, or used to complement, the directory search, though...


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Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 22:17
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Reducing old KudoZ point is unfair Aug 21, 2016

Samuel Murray wrote:
This suggestion is unfair to old members who have worked hard to collect their KudoZ points. If KudoZ points are used for directory ranking, then I don't think the older KudoZ points should be ignored completely. Instead, I would suggest something like this:

I don't think it's unfair to old members, because
- Their rankings are still there, still on their profiles.
- Their total KudoZ points are still the same.

It's just that they don't appear at the top list, for example, on August 2016, because they were not bothered to answer any KudoZ questions during July 2016, or none of their answers got selected during the month of July 2016.

In fact, I think that reducing the value of their old KudoZ points is unfair.

Thanks.

Verdi


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Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 22:17
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The problem is with the directory search Aug 21, 2016

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
Just a note to say there already is something technically similar to that, but it's in the KudoZ section: http://www.proz.com/?sp=leaders_new
Not sure if/how it could be integrated into, or used to complement, the directory search, though...

Thanks, Mirko. Yes, I am aware that the-3 month period also exists. But the problem is, when the clients do the search for translators, the results shown to the them is the list of translators with all-time KudoZ points, which is unfair to new members, or to old members who only recently realized the effects of KudoZ to their ranking.

Thanks.

Verdi


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David GAY  Identity Verified
Member (2014)
English to French
+ ...
Clever outsourcers hardly rely on Kudoz scores Aug 21, 2016

I think clever (and good paying) outsourcers hardly
rely on the Kudoz score in itself (for instance, a ratio
Kudoz score/ questions answered is paramount) . I think very successful
translators don't even have time to answer Kudoz questions
anymore. I think what matters is to have a clear
specialisation as opposed to translators who specialize
in every kind of field and offer low rates. Good outsourcers usually use advanced
search to find specialized translators, and do not use the overall
Kudoz score. Sometimes, there are also mistakes in the selected Kudoz
answers...


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Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 22:17
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
You're assuming things Aug 21, 2016

David GAY wrote:

I think clever (and good paying) outsourcers hardly
rely on the Kudoz score in itself (for instance, a ratio
Kudoz score/ questions answered is paramount) . I think very successful
translators don't even have time to answer Kudoz questions
anymore. I think what matters is to have a clear
specialisation as opposed to translators who specialize
in every kind of field and offer low rates. Good outsourcers usually use advanced
search to find specialized translators, and do not use the overall
Kudoz score. Sometimes, there are also mistakes in the selected Kudoz
answers...


Thanks. You're assuming:
- clever (and good paying) outsourcers hardly rely on the Kudoz score.
- Good outsourcers usually use advanced search to find specialized translators, and do not use the overall
Kudoz score.

This is what I am assuming:

- Not all outsources are clever
- Not all outsourcers use advanced search
- Not all outsourcers have enough time to check all the profiles one by one down to the bottom of the list (not to mention the next page)
- Etc.


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Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 16:17
Member
English to Italian
+ ...
But... Aug 21, 2016

David GAY wrote:

I think clever (and good paying) outsourcers hardly
rely on the Kudoz score in itself (for instance, a ratio
Kudoz score/ questions answered is paramount) . I think very successful
translators don't even have time to answer Kudoz questions
anymore. I think what matters is to have a clear
specialisation as opposed to translators who specialize
in every kind of field and offer low rates. Good outsourcers usually use advanced
search to find specialized translators, and do not use the overall
Kudoz score.


The point is that KudoZ ranking (plus paid membership) are seamlessly integrated into the directory search, therefore it's not a matter of clients using the KudoZ score as a parameter to choose someone over someone else, since every time they do a directory search (even an "advanced" one with specific options such as fields, CAT tools, credentials, etc.), the results they'll be getting will still be ordered based on KudoZ points (and paid membership)...


Sometimes, there are also mistakes in the selected Kudoz answers...


Indeed...


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David GAY  Identity Verified
Member (2014)
English to French
+ ...
I agree Aug 21, 2016

Not all outsourcers are clever but usually the most successful
are (and they offer good rates to their translators and usually
pay their translators). I think you should concentrate on clever
outsourcers because they are the only ones that matter. Usually
bad outsourcers offer bad rates AND don't pay their bills.

[Modifié le 2016-08-21 12:52 GMT]


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