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Ongoing and a new anomaly
Thread poster: Katalin Szilárd

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 01:12
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Jul 17

Same page, time difference between the printscreens: 1 minute.
See the login data in the bottom right corner.

Same page: 83d 3h 2m ago

xm87ciqi1lfsqufrsbwv.jpg

Same page: 8d 2h 43m ago

k1xg0pasl4chn9mbwpgu.jpg

Today:

I clicked on a proz.com page and the page I wanted open didn't open but I was navigated to this page:

wdk7fyvchwrrrqwv3dnm.jpg

Yes, my username is Creativity but I set my profile to use only my full name (Katalin Szilárd).
If you see it differently, please let me know.

Update:

Actually my profile page should be https://www.proz.com/translator/23021
and NOT https://www.proz.com/profile/23021




[Edited at 2018-07-17 08:50 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-07-17 09:05 GMT]


 

Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 00:12
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Support ticket? Jul 17

This seems like an ongoing thing so it doesn't make much sense as a new forum topic. "Same thing"? What same thing?

All I know is that I was given the choice of "profile", "translator" and maybe one or two others when I set up my own profile. We're actually only allowed to have one profile per person, so it looks as though you need to delete one of them.

But really, I do advise you to send a Support Ticket to staff instead of trying to discuss it here. It just doesn't seem to me to be a useful topic for discussion. The handling of your particular profiles is a matter for you and ProZ.com staff to discuss.


 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 01:12
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The big picture Jul 17

Sheila Wilson wrote:

This seems like an ongoing thing so it doesn't make much sense as a new forum topic. "Same thing"? What same thing?

All I know is that I was given the choice of "profile", "translator" and maybe one or two others when I set up my own profile. We're actually only allowed to have one profile per person, so it looks as though you need to delete one of them.

But really, I do advise you to send a Support Ticket to staff instead of trying to discuss it here. It just doesn't seem to me to be a useful topic for discussion. The handling of your particular profiles is a matter for you and ProZ.com staff to discuss.


Hi Sheila,

Yes, we are allowed to have only 1 profile. Exactly. I don't have 2 profiles. I have only 1 profile.
At least I created only 1 profile and I use 1 profile.
I set to use "translator" and not "profile" in my profile link: http://www.proz.com/translator/23021

I did send support tickets for each of these anomalies.
No answers came for these anomalies.

The site staff
a) either knows what's going on and that's why they don't tell the truth
or
b) they don't know what's going that's why they don't tell the truth.
______________________________________________________________________________

Do you remember when your name was changed to Sheilagh in a post of yours?

https://www.proz.com/forum/translation_in_the_uk/233266-becoming_a_certified_translator_in_the_uk_help_needed-page3.html

You wouldn't have known about this anomaly if I didn't post a printscreen to you in a post.
And you wouldn't have known about that your Translators Without Border logo also had an alias: Sheilagh.
Without open public communication you wouldn't have figured this out.

___________________________________________________________________________-

And take a look at this conversation:

https://www.proz.com/forum/site_forums/326098-forum_"agree"_button_released-page4.html#2737841

Sorry, every time I try to open the above link now it is directed to the default forum page.
Wondering why...icon_smile.gif

Anyway here are the printscreens of the conversation:

lfnb5uv8y4pvqd6gz8vf.png

then

kazgircvi4mivsmqaz7r.png

then

kgajiastsekpbmwaoayx.png
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Don't you see what is going on here, Sheila?


Bests,
Katalin




[Edited at 2018-07-17 10:13 GMT]


 

Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 00:12
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
No, I just don't see it Jul 17

Katalin Szilárd wrote:
Do you remember when your name was changed to Sheilagh in a post of yours?

https://www.proz.com/forum/translation_in_the_uk/233266-becoming_a_certified_translator_in_the_uk_help_needed-page3.html

You wouldn't have known about this anomaly if I didn't post a printscreen to you in a post.
And you wouldn't have known about that your Translators Without Border logo also had an alias: Sheilagh.
Without open public communication you wouldn't have figured this out.

I remember that it was handy to have it pointed out so fast, thanks. But it would have come to my notice pretty quickly as it was appearing everywhere. I sent a support ticket and it was sorted out. Both ProZ.com and I realise that there's a problem with my name on this site, and we both know the reason behind it. It does cause hassles every now and again. Hopefully one day a workaround will be found.


I see a discussion about a feature that was developed but whose implementation was extremely poorly managed. Rather than sticking to the topic of getting the feature implemented correctly as quickly as possible, the discussion went off in a different direction and became some sort of conspiracy rant instead of discussing an "agree" button.

I did send support tickets for each of these anomalies.
No answers came for these anomalies.

The site staff
a) either knows what's going on and that's why they don't tell the truth
or
b) they don't know what's going that's why they don't tell the truth.

Don't you see what is going on here, Sheila?

No, I don't, Katalin. I see that you have some very deep mistrust of ProZ.com staff and everything on the site. But that's all I see apart from a few programming glitches. As an ex programmer and systems analyst (in a very different life forty years ago!) I know how easy it is for them to creep in. It's no big deal but they can take some hunting down and fixing. It's quite a fun job for a detail-oriented programmer, but the problem is that they really can't be given a high priority as they aren't sufficiently important. So they always get put off for tomorrow. Now I come to think of it, it's perfect for a week-long placement for a high-school kid who's learning programming. As long as the fix is thoroughly checked to make sure the "cure" isn't actually more damaging than the complaint!


 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 01:12
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Maybe one day you will understand it... Jul 17

Sheila Wilson wrote:

No, I just don't see it


Thank you for your post, Sheila.
There are people who know what I'm talking about....


 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 01:12
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
In a different life... Jul 17

Sheila Wilson wrote:

. But that's all I see apart from a few programming glitches. As an ex programmer and systems analyst (in a very different life forty years ago!) I know how easy it is for them to creep in.


Wow! I didn't know that you were an ex programmer and a system analyst in a different life 40 years ago!
I thought you were specialized in marketing and tourism.

If you read the content of the printscreens very thoroughly, you will see the main reason I copied and paste those last 3 pages. It goes way beyond the question of the controversial agree icons.

As an ex programmer don't you see the security and moral "glitch" of using aliases on a professional site?


 

Robin Levey
Chile
Local time: 20:12
Spanish to English
+ ...
In the present life... Jul 17

... as well as being a translator, I am the developer and administrator of several multilingual websites in which significant quantities of sensitive personal data are processed (one of these sites carries comprehensive genealogical data on many thousands of individuals, much of it falling within the scope of the GDPR). I agree absolutely with Katalin that many of the “glitches” we’ve seen on Proz.com in recent months go far beyond what is acceptable (and in some cases, legal) in the 21st century.

All “glitches” have a cause and, as a developer, I wonder where the problem lies. In other threads I have commented about Proz.com staff “tinkering” with the services provided; about how the published site is being used for alpha testing of new features that really ought to be tested in private while the design flaws and technical bugs are ironed out; how our data is being “repurposed” in ways that were not intended when we provided that data; how new features are being built on shifting sands.

A few weeks ago https://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/325651-airbrushed_out_of_the_charts_prozcom_team_full_leader_list_will_be_made_accessible_again.html there was a discussion about unannounced changes to the leader-boards. Amongst many other problems, examples were found where people were listed in the “last 3 months” leader-board when they had in fact not answered any Kudoz questions at all in the past 8 years. Like the “agree button” thread quoted in full by Katalin, that “leader-board” thread has been effectively hidden by redirecting the link to the default forum page. And despite a firm promise from Henry, in that thread, that the errors in the “last 3 months” board would be “fixed”, the same person is still being listed – many weeks later.

More recently https://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_technical_support/327100-does_your_notification_history_show_the_history_before_today.html
Katlin raised concerns over what might a silly bug in the notifications reporting – but it might just as easily have been caused by “finger trouble” by someone with privileged access to the database (i.e. a developer). Either way, "silly bugs" and "glitches" don't just "happen" - they have a cause (and in most cases a cure - even if it involves chopping off someone's itchy fingers).

Taking all these problems together, I venture to suggest they are the result of:
- lack of direction in defining, planning and implementing the present and future orientation of the site;
- poor understanding of the legitimate expectations of site users (paying and non-paying);
- poor communication with site users – and inadequate respect for their/our efforts to contribute to safeguarding (whatever’s left of) the value of this site;
- lack or inadequacy of ground rules for good development practice;
- inadequate supervision;
- technical inadequacy of the underlying site platform (basically unchanged in the past 16 or more years) as a foundation for some of the new site features that are being implemented, especially those involving sentitive or mission-critical data - where I refer to our mission as individual site users, not the site's mission as a business.

In brief: I see Proz.com falling apart at the seams.

RL


Katalin Szilárd
Mirko Mainardi
Michal Fabian
 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 01:12
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
As it turned out notification history issue is not a bug Jul 18

Robin Levey wrote:


More recently https://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_technical_support/327100-does_your_notification_history_show_the_history_before_today.html
Katlin raised concerns over what might a silly bug in the notifications reporting – but it might just as easily have been caused by “finger trouble” by someone with privileged access to the database (i.e. a developer). Either way, "silly bugs" and "glitches" don't just "happen" - they have a cause (and in most cases a cure - even if it involves chopping off someone's itchy fingers).

RL


Hi Robin,

I see that you sent this post of yours yesterday (17 July) but (at least for me) it was shown only now (18 July, 2:33 pm (GMT+2)).

I received this answer from the site staff:

"Please note that the notification logs are stored in periods of 15 days for users. That means that if today is 18 then they are available for the user for a period from July 15 until the end of the month.
I hope this helps. "

This seems to be changed recently...


 

Sorana_M.
Romania
Local time: 02:12
English to Romanian
+ ...
Delays Jul 18

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

Hi Robin,

I see that you sent this post of yours yesterday (17 July) but (at least for me) it was shown only now (18 July, 2:33 pm (GMT+2)).




That is because non-paying users of ProZ have to have their posts approved before they can be read by others. It will happen to this post of mine as well. There will be a delay between when I write it and when it gets approved, meaning made visible.

You are a [blue ribbon] user, Robin is not.


 

Robin Levey
Chile
Local time: 20:12
Spanish to English
+ ...
Flawed design working properly Jul 18

Katalin Szilárd wrote:
I see that you sent this post of yours yesterday (17 July) but (at least for me) it was shown only now (18 July, 2:33 pm (GMT+2)).


I’m a non-paying user, so my posts are vetted before they appear – that’s why you’ve only just seen yesterday’s post.

Katalin Szilárd wrote:
I received this answer from the site staff:

"Please note that the notification logs are stored in periods of 15 days for users. That means that if today is 18 then they are available for the user for a period from July 15 until the end of the month.
I hope this helps. "

This seems to be changed recently...


OK, so it’s not strictly speaking a “bug” – it’s a built-in design flaw that’s working properly.

I can understand the site wanting to limit the logs displayed to users to 15 days, but any sensible, well-thought-out, well-designed, user-oriented system would use a rolling “last 15 days” filter, not a “15-day block” filter.

Silly bugs are excusable - and easily fixed in most cases. Bad design is often implicit in a site's business model and may be beyond repair.
RL


 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 01:12
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for this information Jul 18

Thank you Sorana and Robin for letting me know that non-payers' posts are delayed because they must be vetted.

What I wish for: transparency in business attitude of proz.com and transparency in technical things (no hidden settings, no hidden new implementations).

And both directories should be open to new clients without paying or without logging in.
Because right now my visitors tab shows I'm almost invisible for clients.
No visitors from Proz Find only every now and then (about 5 since it was implemented) and 2 emails were sent from outsourcers but I had to decline them. I talked with another member who is also in the top section of both directories and he/she experiencing the same.

On the other hand I see extremely happy people translating medical (even medical marketing) texts for NGOs.... I assume for free.icon_smile.gif Is there a leak in the medical translation market?icon_smile.gif

[Edited at 2018-07-18 16:41 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-07-18 16:59 GMT]


 

Alison MacG  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:12
German to English
+ ...
Another example of a glitch, bug or unannounced development? Jul 18

I have both my job and KudoZ preferences set to receive notifications only for my specialities, 1. Patents and 2. Law: Patents, Trademarks, Copyright. I usually receive maybe a couple of job notifications a month and a few new KudoZ questions a week. At the end of June, I was suddenly receiving several notifications a day, but in other fields such as technical and engineering. I checked my settings, but they were correct - my specialities only. It was at this point I checked my profile.

It certainly came as news to me, but apparently I now specialised in 10 fields (the maximum permissible) rather than just the two I had entered myself. The other eight appeared to have been moved there by ProZ or one of its algorithms from the Also works in section where I had initially entered them. In addition, the Also works in section now also contained a couple of fields I had not entered myself (although they were fields in which I had earned KudoZ points).

As the profile updater is at present not allowing me to enter any speciality fields or also works in fields, only General fields and Detailed fields, I have had to delete all but my two speciality fields in order to ensure that my public profile displays accurate information and that I no longer receive unwanted notifications. I have already deleted/stripped back other parts of my profile recently for various reasons.

I am assuming this has happened because ProZ is making changes to the way we are to enter our expertise, but I am not happy about a glitch that can make changes to my public profile without my permission, consent or knowledge. I only discovered this by accident.

I submitted a support ticket on July 5. The reply on July 10 said that this was being passed on to someone better able to help. At present, I am still waiting.

I would be interested to know if this has happened to anyone else.


Michele Fauble
 

Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 01:12
Member (2006)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
By accident... Jul 18

Alison MacG wrote:

I only discovered this by accident.


That's the main point. As you said these are done probably by algorithms.
And due to so many changes at once users don't even know what's the latest with settings etc.


 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 01:12
Member
English to Italian
Appalling Jul 18

Alison MacG wrote:

It certainly came as news to me, but apparently I now specialised in 10 fields (the maximum permissible) rather than just the two I had entered myself. The other eight appeared to have been moved there by ProZ or one of its algorithms from the Also works in section where I had initially entered them. In addition, the Also works in section now also contained a couple of fields I had not entered myself (although they were fields in which I had earned KudoZ points).

As the profile updater is at present not allowing me to enter any speciality fields or also works in fields, only General fields and Detailed fields, I have had to delete all but my two speciality fields in order to ensure that my public profile displays accurate information and that I no longer receive unwanted notifications. I have already deleted/stripped back other parts of my profile recently for various reasons.

I am assuming this has happened because ProZ is making changes to the way we are to enter our expertise, but I am not happy about a glitch that can make changes to my public profile without my permission, consent or knowledge. I only discovered this by accident.

I submitted a support ticket on July 5. The reply on July 10 said that this was being passed on to someone better able to help. At present, I am still waiting.

I would be interested to know if this has happened to anyone else.


Yes, it did... and thanks for writing your post (which I read by accident, just like you discovered what "happened" by accident...). Unbelievable...

This is the message written on top of the "general fields" tab: "Your general fields have been ranked based on related KudoZ points, detailed fields and the most representative order of general fields in ProZ.com". This is already very wrong to start with, then the choices you are given to answer "In which general fields do you work?" are "Sometimes" and "Never"...

And yes, even in my case all of the "detailed fields" are messed up compared to the order I had given them when choosing "specialty", "working" and "interest" (and double checked when it was mentioned somewhere ordering would be used for ranking). Don't really know if there are more or less than before, as now it's just a blob of... stuff...

They still have bugs they've been dragging on for ages*, and yet they relentlessly keep changing stuff overnight, without telling anyone, even if it directly impacts users' profiles, directory ranking, the way users are presented to clients, etc.

Well, just wonderful... KudoZ for messing up out our profiles and ranking without even telling us (again)...

Do you seriously think that's how things should be done?

I'm quoting from Robin Levey's post:

All “glitches” have a cause and, as a developer, I wonder where the problem lies. In other threads I have commented about Proz.com staff “tinkering” with the services provided; about how the published site is being used for alpha testing of new features that really ought to be tested in private while the design flaws and technical bugs are ironed out; how our data is being “repurposed” in ways that were not intended when we provided that data; how new features are being built on shifting sands.



*E.g. I submitted a support request for a "bug" in the "old" directory search like two months ago which produced unexpected results in searches and was acknowledged and (hopefully) addressed.


Michele Fauble
Robin Levey
 

Robin Levey
Chile
Local time: 20:12
Spanish to English
+ ...
Appalling, indeed... Jul 18

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Well, just wonderful... KudoZ for messing up out our profiles and ranking without even telling us (again)...

Do you seriously think that's how things should be done?



I have just checked my own profile and see similar problems. I confess that I only visit my profile about once a year, so I cannot be sure what my fields were before, or the order of presentation. But I am certain that one of them was not “Other” – which is now sitting at number 2 in my list, simply because many of the Kudoz questions I have answered over the years have been mis-classified as “Other” by Askers who cannot be bothered to set the field correctly on their questions. This is utterly arbitrary and makes a mockery of my (albeit lazy) attempts to portray my expertise correctly on this site.

I would go so far as to say that the “Other” field should simply be eliminated from the system entirely, forcing all users – both Kudoz Askers and job clients – to set the fields correctly (although I readily concede that the lists of fields are barely fit for purpose, so it's not surprising users don't use them properly).

Related to that is a “mis-ranking” affecting the position of “Law/Patents” in my list, since many (probably most) of the questions I have helped with under that field heading have in fact been technical or engineering questions about terms in technical patents, although I do also have many points from true “legal” questions.

All this relates to a simple practical problem I raised some months ago: the same “fields” lists are not necessarily appropriate for both Kudoz and job-hunting. I don’t use Proz.com for job-hunting, and my fields are set to optimise participation in Kudoz. If I did want to focus on job-hunting, I would need to set different fields (and probably lose prominence on the Kudoz playing-field).

We need different lists for each of those purposes. And we need OUR choice of fields, and the prioritisation of those fields in OUR profiles, to be set BY US, not by some mindless algorithm.

RL


Michele Fauble
 
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