| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Can we have a site abuse forum? Thread poster: Andrea Bullrich
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laurab
Mexico
Local time: 19:01
English to Italian
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| Answer to Eivind | Jan 16, 2002 |
Hi Eivind - it\'s not a question of not wanting to help the 11 year old or anyone else that needs help for that matter - I hope you understood it. It\'s just like Werner said - abusers who try to get their translations done for free. I\'ve been taken advantage of, I\'m not blaming anyone else but me - God forbid - I\'m just asking if there\'s another way other than personal criteria to find out before. That\'s all. Have a good day.
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On 2002-01-16 13:59, AbacusTrans wrote:
This is NOT about easy and difficult questions, but about abusers who try to get translations done for free (and some members, including a few moderators, DO bend over backwards trying to score points in the process). Please stay on topic!!! Besides, I never said, \"let\'s squash all simple questions\" (where did you read that?????). It is questions from known abusers that must be squa
... See more Quote:
On 2002-01-16 13:59, AbacusTrans wrote:
This is NOT about easy and difficult questions, but about abusers who try to get translations done for free (and some members, including a few moderators, DO bend over backwards trying to score points in the process). Please stay on topic!!! Besides, I never said, \"let\'s squash all simple questions\" (where did you read that?????). It is questions from known abusers that must be squashed, even if they have been answered.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-01-16 14:20 ]
Instead of harping on about \"squashing questions that deserve to be squashed,\" I think a discussion on how to identify such questions could be useful. But obviously, if it\'s clear to everyone but me who\'s an abuser and who\'s not, that discussion is irrelevant. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jon Zuber (X)
Spanish to English
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| Answering two of Andrea's questions. | Jan 16, 2002 |
I don\'t think we should have a whole forum section on site abuse, if only because of the impression that would make on people coming to ProZ for the first time. I think abuse should be treated in the \"ProZ.com: translator coop\" and —when there\'s a concrete suggestion to be discussed— \"Suggestions\" fora.
Yes, abusive questions should be squashed even if answers have been offered. If answerers appear to be responding in good faith, unaware of what they\'re abetting, ... See more I don\'t think we should have a whole forum section on site abuse, if only because of the impression that would make on people coming to ProZ for the first time. I think abuse should be treated in the \"ProZ.com: translator coop\" and —when there\'s a concrete suggestion to be discussed— \"Suggestions\" fora.
Yes, abusive questions should be squashed even if answers have been offered. If answerers appear to be responding in good faith, unaware of what they\'re abetting, it should be explained to them, but the questions should go. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Again, we need to raise awareness (and solidarity) | Jan 16, 2002 |
Hi again.
Thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion up to now.
Just a few more things to try and help ourselves out with this:
To Giuliana:
“I squash repeated questions and questions for terms you can find in our glossaries, but I have noticed there\'s a language pair where very easy questions and repetitions are accepted any time with three, four people answering...”
Giuliana, I think th... See more Hi again.
Thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion up to now.
Just a few more things to try and help ourselves out with this:
To Giuliana:
“I squash repeated questions and questions for terms you can find in our glossaries, but I have noticed there\'s a language pair where very easy questions and repetitions are accepted any time with three, four people answering...”
Giuliana, I think that’s a great idea! It had not even crossed my mind, but until Henry can implement the suggestion to automatically bounce questions that are already in the glossary, I think it’s perfectly valid to squash them providing as the reason for squashing something like “Repetition. To the asker: the answer to your question is already in the glossary” (or something like that). A catch: with so many wrong entries in the glossary, I would only do this in the case Merry Christmas-type questions, or others that are very obvious.
To Eivind:
“After Andrea\'s very reasonable message...”
First of all , thanks for the “reasonable” bit 
“As far as I can see, Andrea is talking about one person having two user names and using one to post questions and the other to answer them and scoop in a few KudoZ.”
You’re right, in my first message I was talking about split personalities for point-grabbing (in this case, by a particularly dumb person who made it quite obvious, others are more sneaky).
“As for terms/words that can be readily found in dictionaries/glossaries -- are we to exclude all \"simple\" questions in a wholesale fashion...”
I agree, we should not dismiss simple questions. In fact, it is ProZ policy to answer them to promote the site (see Henry’s second posting at http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&eid_c=3087&topic=65&forum=13&19)
“Squashing questions that combined form continuous text is another matter -- it\'s fine by me, only in some cases posting consecutive questions can be seen as a gesture of fairness compared to questions with a long paragraph in the context field which the asker apparently would like us to translate...”
I guess you mean questions by non-professionals, and I agree we should also discuss this, among many other forms of site abuse that I’ve not mentioned here yet, but I encourage all of you to disclose.
In my second posting, however, I was referring to a different kind of abuse: abuse by somebody who is obviously a translator doing a job he/she is not qualified to do. In the cases of Sibila and Salto, who by the way just this morning mutated into faustina and tomito (!), it is clear that these people took jobs they are not qualified to do and want the rest of us to do the translating. It is in these cases, a case of peer abuse, that I support squashing (but please see the thread I mentioned above, at http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&eid_c=3087&topic=809&forum=13&32, to get a clearer picture.)
If you check that thread you will see that I don’t support squashing questions that have been answered by others, quite to the contrary, I used to think answerers’ efforts should receive some recognition. But let me share now part of a message I received from a colleague this morning, after I warned him that “faustina” was abusing the site (this is my translation of this colleague\'s message):
“It is the first time I see that name, and I don’t have the time to choose questions sitting at the computer. I hope you understand. If this happens again I will do the same thing I did to Salto: I squashed the question, but just as it wouldn’t be fair to squash a question others have already answered, not answering what others have answered (not in this case, since I wouldn’t have recognized this abuse if you hadn’t told me) means leaving the way open for unfair competition (one person answers and another does not). I suggest you squash these questions citing site abuse, as I did with Salto and others have also done.”
OK now, I really feel this colleague is not being very helpful. I myself have squashed dozens of these questions, have refrained from squashing when he or others have answered, and yet he expects me to spend more of my time squashing, while he spends his time answering (and therefore getting more KudoZ, if only by default: Salto’s track record shows that he has graded only one question, about a week ago, after we had squashed about 30 in a row; the rest were graded automatically based on peer agreement). I have sent a reply to this colleague of mine, asking him for more cooperation and inviting him to join this discussion. I also explained to him that I, like him, need time to work and/or get KudoZ (yes, I like them, so what? ) But with an answer such as this one, I feel that it is not only askers that are abusing the site: some answerers are doing their part too, and I\'m really tempted to squash answered questions... but again, I\'d like more input. And this takes me back to my original message: we really need a site abuse forum, as well as clear guidelines to identify site abuse. Otherwise, we will end up turning against each other and helping only abusers instead of ourselves.
Best to all,
Andrea
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| No KudoZ for easy questions | Jan 16, 2002 |
I think Tim\'s suggestion is great.
I don\'t mind answering the \"I love you\" question to a kid every now and then, but it has nothing to do with a real translation effort. Therefore, no KudoZ should be awarded and point-chasers would be restricted to the Pro questions.
On the other hand, if we ban empty profiles, posting whole texts under fake profiles would be much more difficult.
Identification of abusers will also be easier; however, as long as there are colle... See more I think Tim\'s suggestion is great.
I don\'t mind answering the \"I love you\" question to a kid every now and then, but it has nothing to do with a real translation effort. Therefore, no KudoZ should be awarded and point-chasers would be restricted to the Pro questions.
On the other hand, if we ban empty profiles, posting whole texts under fake profiles would be much more difficult.
Identification of abusers will also be easier; however, as long as there are colleagues who do not care about the overall quality of this system, the problem will not be solved.
A google search, \"it sounds good to me\", \"native speaker\", those are not enough as a reference. Would any of us (professional translators, I mean) solve a terminology question just by doing a Google search?. That\'s not research, that\'s a joke.
We shouldn\'t be surprised if people think our job is very easy and anyone can do it. Some colleagues\' behaviour suggests that you only need to speak a language and have Google!
Best regards,
Patricia
[addsig] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Responding to inflation | Jan 16, 2002 |
Dear All,
There have been a lot of very sensible contributions to this thread, and it\'s obvious that the problems addressed affect many of us.
I second the proposal to award KudoZ to Pro questions only. Perhaps one could get a Browni or two for the Merry Christmas\'es?
KudoZ as a kind of virtual currency needs to be protected from devaluation. The \"split-personality-scam\" and, to a lesser degree, the Merry Christmas-questions, can be compared to xeroxing money (... See more Dear All,
There have been a lot of very sensible contributions to this thread, and it\'s obvious that the problems addressed affect many of us.
I second the proposal to award KudoZ to Pro questions only. Perhaps one could get a Browni or two for the Merry Christmas\'es?
KudoZ as a kind of virtual currency needs to be protected from devaluation. The \"split-personality-scam\" and, to a lesser degree, the Merry Christmas-questions, can be compared to xeroxing money (yeah, I know the analogy is a bit weak). Of course, putting whole translations down for KudoZ translation is like xeroxing money in the original sense. It may be the closest you get to criminal behaviour on this site.
So how to address this problem? Andrea says something very relevant when she points out how much time it actually take to actively moderate a service like KudoZ.
The question we therefore should ask ourselves in my opinion, is: How can we discourage abuse of the above-mentioned kinds structurally, i.e. by the way the site works?
Thanks, Eivind ▲ Collapse
| | | | BelkisDV 
United States
Local time: 21:01
Spanish to English
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Thanks to these postings I\'ve been able to become aware of the site abuse problem and I\'m trying to do my part by not answering people who post 100 questions. I haven\'t squashed any because I have no idea how it\'s done, please excuse my ignorance in this respect. However, I don\'t know which is worse, abusive askers or abusive answerers who degrade the profession on a daily basis with their made up answers and often made up terms. Shame on both.
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 21:01
German to English
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| Kudos to you! | Jan 16, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-01-16 18:12, BelkisDV wrote:
Thanks to these postings I\'ve been able to become aware of the site abuse problem and I\'m trying to do my part by not answering people who post 100 questions. I haven\'t squashed any because I have no idea how it\'s done, please excuse my ignorance in this respect. However, I don\'t know which is worse, abusive askers or abusive answerers who degrade the profession on a daily basis wit
... See more Quote:
On 2002-01-16 18:12, BelkisDV wrote:
Thanks to these postings I\'ve been able to become aware of the site abuse problem and I\'m trying to do my part by not answering people who post 100 questions. I haven\'t squashed any because I have no idea how it\'s done, please excuse my ignorance in this respect. However, I don\'t know which is worse, abusive askers or abusive answerers who degrade the profession on a daily basis with their made up answers and often made up terms. Shame on both.
Absolutely! ▲ Collapse
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athena22
United States
Local time: 18:01
Member
English
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| Answering simple questions: live and let live | Jan 16, 2002 |
I know that everyone won\'t agree with me, so please, please don\'t shoot me down too vociferously.
Most of the very simple questions--of the \"I love you, \"Happy Birthday\" variety--seem to be posted by high school and college students. They may have a new chat buddy or email friend or whatever and have bumped into our site for help. Sometimes they\'re trying to get their homework done for them--a tad lazy, no? But sometimes they\'re... See more I know that everyone won\'t agree with me, so please, please don\'t shoot me down too vociferously.
Most of the very simple questions--of the \"I love you, \"Happy Birthday\" variety--seem to be posted by high school and college students. They may have a new chat buddy or email friend or whatever and have bumped into our site for help. Sometimes they\'re trying to get their homework done for them--a tad lazy, no? But sometimes they\'re just stuck. Those questions belong in the Easy section; that\'s its purpose and it does bring the site free advertising. I think that it is unnecessary and perhaps a bit cruel to squash their questions, or refer them to a previous time that the question was asked for three reasons. First, those reference URLs don\'t always work reliably. Second, the person genuinely doesn\'t know and probably doesn\'t fully understand the purpose of the site. Third, they asked for help; it takes so little to help someone when they need it, instead of making them feel bad. I maintain that anyone who doesn\'t want to answer, \"How do you say \"Hello\" in French?\" for the 50 millionth time doesn\'t have to. I tend to answer those kinds of questions at 12 or 1 in the morning, when my brain is slowing down and I\'m getting ready to crash...
As for the homework ones, I answer them depending on my mood, and if the text is too long or the person has already posted three other parts of what is clearly a last-minute homework assignment, I\'ll tell them (hopefully nicely) that they\'ve gone beyond what seems fair for the site. They\'re going to get nailed at the final exam anyway; so they\'ll get their life lesson as needed. This may also be a cultural issue: it\'s been my experience that different cultures handle dumb/basic questions differently, in terms of how they treat the asker.
There are abuses: someone getting their job done for free,etc. One doesn\'t have to help those folks if one doesn\'t want to. It\'s a free--and often very cruel--world in cyberspace. An interesting case of abuse that I think the system took care of wass the person who asked for help with something in exchange for giving medical help or some such ridiculousness a few days ago. (I don\'t remember all the details of this one.) A whole bunch of us logged in to agree with the original answerer--at least in my case, in order to give weight to the notion that this was inappropriate.
So I guess I\'m saying that I believe that ignorance can be overcome by information; it doesn\'t hurt me to supply that information when (and if) I\'ve got the time.
I\'m wondering whether the subtext to this issue is that Browniz can now be traded for bids and that people may be feeling the squeeze there? I don\'t know how to answer this issue, but just wondered whether people felt this might be part of the problem?
As for me, because my computer system is slow (we can\'t even get DSL here), I often don\'t even see the Kudoz emails until they question has been multiply answered. That\'s life.
Please forgive the length of this post...
athena22 ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Recognizing abuse (free translations) | Jan 17, 2002 |
Eivind suggested: \"I think a discussion on how to identify such questions could be useful.\"
Let me clarify that the type of abuse I\'m referring to is NOT people trying to get their homework done, or to communicate with an e-pen-pal in an unfamiliar language. It\'s about people who time and again seem to have have accepted jobs for which they\'re not qualified, and want us to do it for them. Speaking personally, I recognize them by (1) The pattern or history. The same pers... See more Eivind suggested: \"I think a discussion on how to identify such questions could be useful.\"
Let me clarify that the type of abuse I\'m referring to is NOT people trying to get their homework done, or to communicate with an e-pen-pal in an unfamiliar language. It\'s about people who time and again seem to have have accepted jobs for which they\'re not qualified, and want us to do it for them. Speaking personally, I recognize them by (1) The pattern or history. The same person does it again repeatedly, and it\'s clear that it\'s a different, new text each time. (2) The queries are so thick that you can recreate the text just by looking at the series of KudoZ requests.
These two criteria are, for me, what distinguish them from non-abuse. Re (1); If it just happens once with a given person, it may not be a translator working on a job, but a person wanting a translation of a document for their own personal needs. Then it\'s up to us whether we judge it worthwhile to give it to them free. Re (2); If you\'ve seen examples of this point, you know what I mean. It\'s not so much the number of queries, but the density of them within the text. It shows that the asker simply doesn\'t understand the text, period.
Any other ideas on recognizing this kind of abuse? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Free translation | Jan 19, 2002 |
Quote:
It\'s about people who time and again seem to have have accepted jobs for which they\'re not qualified, and want us to do it for them. Speaking personally, I recognize them by (1) The pattern or history. The same person does it again repeatedly, and it\'s clear that it\'s a different, new text each time. (2) The queries are so thick that you can recreate the text just by looking at the series of KudoZ requests.
<
... See more Quote:
It\'s about people who time and again seem to have have accepted jobs for which they\'re not qualified, and want us to do it for them. Speaking personally, I recognize them by (1) The pattern or history. The same person does it again repeatedly, and it\'s clear that it\'s a different, new text each time. (2) The queries are so thick that you can recreate the text just by looking at the series of KudoZ requests.
Exactly!. And on going to their homepages, I realized that each time they were not really qualified for the sort of translation they undertook. (this is what is happening in the En/It and It/En pairs, anyway)
So, wouldn\'t you call this \"abuse\"? And what can we do about it, once we know for sure someone is behaving this way?
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| | | | | Back to site abuse by answerers | Jan 24, 2002 |
Hi again.
Just like when I started this thread I woke up to find fjerboa\'s answer to \"requests\" (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/132804), today I woke up to an odd disagree to my answer in an Eng>Sp question I had answered yesterday(http://www.proz.com/kudoz/137410). The person who criticize... See more Hi again.
Just like when I started this thread I woke up to find fjerboa\'s answer to \"requests\" (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/132804), today I woke up to an odd disagree to my answer in an Eng>Sp question I had answered yesterday(http://www.proz.com/kudoz/137410). The person who criticized my translation in no moderate terms went on to post several nonsensical (not to mention ungrammatical) answers, and to back them up with this: \"I wish I had a Spanish dictionary to consult\", \"I am writing this mainly from memory. I learned Spanish in high school and college and had many friends from Latin America and Spain who corrected my Spanish to native. However, I haven\'t spoken much Spanish lately.\", and \"I had this conversation with native speakers many years ago. I may not have the grammar right.\" Need I say more?
By the way, fjerboa\'s profile is still there. Why?
Andrea
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-01-24 16:47 ] ▲ Collapse
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| It's always instructive to check their profiles | Jan 24, 2002 |
Andrea: I looked up the profile of the person I think you refer to, and I found it fascinating; she has about a dozen language combinations, including English > Spanish, although from what I could see at KudoZ she can barely speak it; she boasts 10 years experience in translation, and claims to have a number of important clients. I also looked up the profile of another person who has apparently nothing to do, other than answering KudoZ questions, because he answers every single one of them: I ju... See more Andrea: I looked up the profile of the person I think you refer to, and I found it fascinating; she has about a dozen language combinations, including English > Spanish, although from what I could see at KudoZ she can barely speak it; she boasts 10 years experience in translation, and claims to have a number of important clients. I also looked up the profile of another person who has apparently nothing to do, other than answering KudoZ questions, because he answers every single one of them: I just had to do it because the answers he gave were so absurd, and believe me, it was hair-rising.
The profile was written in awful English, and literally crawling with spelling mistakes. This person also mentions big clients, something that makes me feel really well about the present state of this profession 
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Earlier on there was a person who was getting an entire cookbook translated by KudoZ. Now it is someone who is having a tourism brochure translated in the same way. It is truly embarrassing!!!
I have been a member of ProZ for a while, but only recently I started answering KudoZ questions... I knew nothing about these goings-on.
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