| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Platinum member looking for slave labour Thread poster: Bob Kerns (X)
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invguy 
Bulgaria
Local time: 15:38
English to Bulgarian
| The free market is not to blame | Jan 21, 2004 |
I have not received such a request, as I'm obviously not in that language pair, yet this is how I'd comment:
What I find really disturbing is that the request came from someone who is certainly *very well aware* of the value of a translator's work, as well as of existing professional standards. If it came from an end client for whom translation is just an occasional purchase, and who is used to seeing only price efficiency, I'd simply disregard it without getting too upset; in a fre... See more I have not received such a request, as I'm obviously not in that language pair, yet this is how I'd comment:
What I find really disturbing is that the request came from someone who is certainly *very well aware* of the value of a translator's work, as well as of existing professional standards. If it came from an end client for whom translation is just an occasional purchase, and who is used to seeing only price efficiency, I'd simply disregard it without getting too upset; in a free market, such clients always exist - they are the 'probe' which constantly tests how low prices can drop.
Prices like $ 0.02/word could be justified on low-income markets (such as my domestic one), but IMO they should not be allowed to leave the borders of contries with lower living standard. In fact, this is why I basically do not work for domestic clients, and my minimum price is three times higher than the one in question.
OTOH (benefit of the doubt) it might be that this colleague has received an offer from a client *at that price* which she - of course - would not take herself; so she decided to let someone else have it, if someone would find it a feasible opportunity. That is, I could assume (and sincerely hope) the colleague might be acting out of good will. But if this is the case, I think it should have been clearly explained.
As for the assumption of someone squeezing out unreasonably high profit by severely underpaying subcontractors, well, there can be no excuse for that.
You have a fair deal only when both parties profit, and within reasonable limits.
If one party profits much more than the other one, this is some kind of cheating, not a deal. And those who are to blame for letting this happen are the parties involved (*both* of them), not the free market.
One more point: I'd rather spend a few nights doing the newspaper thing in Oslo, than take a job at $0.02/word.
Firstly, I'd know that for the newspaper job I'd receive a pay which is *fair* for it, albeit less than what I'm used to earn. No contradiction there.
Secondly, I'd know that when I get back to my next translation project, I'd be - again - reasonably paid for the value of my work.
As for the client who wouldn't pay more than 0.02/word - well, they won't have their translation done... until they recognize market realities.
Yep, free market works this way, too.
[Edited at 2004-01-21 12:10] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I am reminded of a late friend of mine | Jan 21, 2004 |
He was the translation coordinator in a public limited company. He was also a full-time translator in this company. The translation work load was heavy and the company wanted to outsource some overflowing jobs to panel tanslators. They were paying a very low rate as fixed by the Government of India. Well, at that time (more than 20 years back) I was not complaining. It should be remembered that in those days no computers were available and the work had to be got manually typed and delivered in 1... See more He was the translation coordinator in a public limited company. He was also a full-time translator in this company. The translation work load was heavy and the company wanted to outsource some overflowing jobs to panel tanslators. They were paying a very low rate as fixed by the Government of India. Well, at that time (more than 20 years back) I was not complaining. It should be remembered that in those days no computers were available and the work had to be got manually typed and delivered in 1+1 copy. I used to write down the translation in long hand and give it to a job typist for typing.
There was this document which was just the same as one of the the earlier ones but with different numerical values. These things did happen and were considered as bonuses as all I had to do was to change the numerical values in my manuscript and give for typing the new translation. Here the coordinator stepped in and expected me to accept just the payment for typing because of the above considerations. To give you an idea, in the early eighties translation page rate was 15 times the typing charges.
I just told the translator where to get off and suggested that he himself should do this work and save his company even this ridiculously low typing cost. He was a well-paid full-time employee and I told him to earn his pay now and then.
Actually the management of the company had no such idea of paying less. It was only this wonderfully cute fellow, who had had this idea of saving money. It takes all kinds of people to make life what it is, I guess. Needless to say, that fellow was indignant at my outburst and told me that he would not give me any more work. I suggested to him as to where he could place his jobs and walked out.
Regards,
N.Raghavan ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Interesting ratio | Jan 21, 2004 |
...To give you an idea, in the early eighties translation page rate was 15 times the typing charges... In my first 17 months in a Berlin translation agency (30 translators) I earned less than in the preceeding 10 years (in 30 companies) as a part time typist financing my studies.
Today as a freelance translator I am earning 2 times more than what I got when I left the agency after 2 years (as a project manager).
Looking back, it was a good investment although it was not exactly what the agency owner expected..
[Edited at 2004-01-21 14:49]
| | | | Richard Benham
France
Local time: 14:38
German to English
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In memoriam | The lady must think she's 5 times as good as we are.... | Jan 21, 2004 |
Hello Folks.
Yes, I received this insulting offer too. After observing that the offending lady's own minimum rate was 0,10 eur per word, I actually wrote a response, as follows:
Eau ******,
I have just checked your profile page and am led to wonder what makes you think you're worth 5 times as much as I am. I have never heard of your Welsh qualification, but I assume it's at postgraduate level, as is my DipTransIoL (accepted as such into the National... See more Hello Folks.
Yes, I received this insulting offer too. After observing that the offending lady's own minimum rate was 0,10 eur per word, I actually wrote a response, as follows:
Eau ******,
I have just checked your profile page and am led to wonder what makes you think you're worth 5 times as much as I am. I have never heard of your Welsh qualification, but I assume it's at postgraduate level, as is my DipTransIoL (accepted as such into the National Qualifications Framework). So we have a pretty similar level of qualification, but you're 5 times as good as I am. How do you justify this?
Yours sincerely,
Richard D. BENHAM ▲ Collapse
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[Edited at 2004-01-21 16:27]
| | | | | I don't bother to reply | Jan 21, 2004 |
Such "offers" are not strange to me but I just don't bother to reply. There'a always "delete" button on my monitor - and in my head.
Regards to all!
| | | | Oleg Osipov
Russian Federation
Local time: 15:38
English to Russian
+ ...
| About professionals and their worries | Jan 21, 2004 |
Gareth McMillan wrote:
But no worries she won't attract a good professional- there are plenty of native Serbo-croation speakers with Chinese/Urdu bilingual talents working out of a steam driven internet connection in Siberia, who will jump at this opportunity.
G. McMillan
[Edited at 2004-01-21 08:16]
Looks like there are some people here who put on airs, which does not smell good to me...
Have fun,
Oleg
| | | | | A free market and expectations | Jan 24, 2004 |
Firstly - I also think 'steamdriven Siberian Internet connections' is a bit beside the point.
So back to the point:
I also received one of those job offers through ProZ mail for a technical translation at a very low rate in US dollars (!).
I sent an e-mail back asking if there was a mistake with the rates, seeing that the (Dutch based)outsourcer's own rates were above average and in euros. I received an e-mail back that this was not the case and did I have any further ... See more Firstly - I also think 'steamdriven Siberian Internet connections' is a bit beside the point.
So back to the point:
I also received one of those job offers through ProZ mail for a technical translation at a very low rate in US dollars (!).
I sent an e-mail back asking if there was a mistake with the rates, seeing that the (Dutch based)outsourcer's own rates were above average and in euros. I received an e-mail back that this was not the case and did I have any further comments?
I did not of course.
I do expect a West-European outsourcer to pay West-European rates in West-European currency. Either that, or an explanation.
I fully understand that the rates are different in other countries and would not have taken offence by the rates offered, had it been an agency or a freelancer based in New Zealand or China.
As other posters already said- in a 'normal' job you would get at least the minimum wages established for that job...
I am glad I was not the only one that felt offended!
Anjo ▲ Collapse
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Richard Benham
France
Local time: 14:38
German to English
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In memoriam | New Zealand?! | Jan 27, 2004 |
Anjo Sterringa wrote:
I fully understand that the rates are different in other countries and would not have taken offence by the rates offered, had it been an agency or a freelancer based in New Zealand or China.
I know that New Zealand is as far away from Spain as you can possibly get on the earth's surface, but it's hardly Third World!
| | | | | OK more detail... no offence meant! | Jan 28, 2004 |
Just to point out that it is not necessarily a 'Third World' - Western World difference to have a difference in income / rates.
I just thought of New Zealand as my sister is going there next month and we were reading up on it. The average income in New Zealand is a lot lower than in many European Countries, it seems. (This does not mean that the buying power is less - just that it is 'cheap' there for Europeans after an expensive flight - something to do with exchange rates perhaps?)
... See more Just to point out that it is not necessarily a 'Third World' - Western World difference to have a difference in income / rates.
I just thought of New Zealand as my sister is going there next month and we were reading up on it. The average income in New Zealand is a lot lower than in many European Countries, it seems. (This does not mean that the buying power is less - just that it is 'cheap' there for Europeans after an expensive flight - something to do with exchange rates perhaps?)
I checked out this indicator (GDP) : http://www1.oecd.org/publications/e-book/92-2003-04-1-7294/Annex_tables_excel/Dt1_e.xls
Taking into account the converting into purchasing power parities the GDP in New Zealand is at Spanish level though! (2002). ▲ Collapse
| | | | T_Herrmann (X)
Local time: 14:38
German to English
+ ...
| Well, as long as someone will take it, someone will ask... | Feb 6, 2004 |
I think that many of us don't get the point. The problem is not her asking, the problem is one poor desperate soul will actually take it, that's why she is asking, that's why it works.
Lets be honest guys, in no other profession will you find so many good, competent, and decent folks willing to sacrifice their rates if they haven't worked for a week. Therefore the term slave labour in itself is inappropriate here, 'cause someone will actually do it, voluntarily.
I visit... See more I think that many of us don't get the point. The problem is not her asking, the problem is one poor desperate soul will actually take it, that's why she is asking, that's why it works.
Lets be honest guys, in no other profession will you find so many good, competent, and decent folks willing to sacrifice their rates if they haven't worked for a week. Therefore the term slave labour in itself is inappropriate here, 'cause someone will actually do it, voluntarily.
I visited ProZ first somewhen in early 2001, and yeah, there were some good jobs to be landed. Can't speak for other language pairs, but rates for German-English were alright. So your average job was around 12 to 16 cents US, I think I even remember getting a 22cent job (heavenly times).
Look at it now, hardly ever do I see offers above 10c Euro, if at all, a rebate mentality has emerged asking you to lower your price for larger quantities of work. As if working more would make it less effort or lower your bills. I've said it then and I say it now (don't bother searching, it was another username back then ), Proz has many many benefits, no doubt, but in general and over the years it has also nurtured what was then often called a "reverse-Ebay" mentality amongst many.
It is just so funny, clients approaching me directly (and that includes agencies) or via the ATA site politely ask if I could lower my rates to 10-12c Euro and if I say I can't for their usually ok with it, meanwhile any ProZ related offer usually ends in something like "hey, we'll get that for 7, have you looked around lately?".
Funny part is if you're a full-time professional translator in Germany rates like that won't even pay your bills (I'm serious about that).
Sometimes it is just too tempting for some.
About a week or two ago I got an email from Hong Kong with a 8 page document attached, really easy stuff, some vacuum cleaner manual. Guess I could have done it within a couple of hours, and didn't have anything to do that afternoon anyway. The sender asked to have it done within 24hrs for payment of USD50. So just out of plain interest I convert the *pdf (how convenient) and run a wordcount, 2800 words.
That would have made a rate of USD 0.018 cents per word.
Am I mad at them, or insulted?
Not really at them, their just doing business. What is really driving me nuts though, and sometimes makes me really %"§$"!!§$§%$$ is that I know that someone will do it for them. The principle is pretty simple, you'd never evr walk into a Mercedes-Benz dealership asking for a brandnew $6,999.- car. Why not? You'd know you'd make yourself the laughing stock of anybody around. But had you seen someone get one, or even only heard about it, then you wouldn't mind asking, right?
Quite frankly, I am a bit bitter about the whole situation here as many factors actually influence a translator's income. Take the low income countries for example. Many times I have read postings stating "why do people bother me, where I am from 3 cents will make me a decent living?".
If I'd be you I take 10cents and live like a king instead of "only" decent.
As long as someone will do these jobs, there'll be folks asking for them. It's just simple economics. We can hate them, we can publicly nail them to the cross, wathever, as long as someone will do it, whatever their reasons may be, there will be a demand.
What's even worse, some two years ago you could at least be sure that clients playing this game would get back shitty work, hey guess what, just a couple of weeks ago I have proofread a 10,000+ words medical job done for 5.5 cents US per word, and it was impeccable work. So add my 3.5cents and those folks got an incredible medical translation for a total of 9cents per word. It used to be you couldn't get a good medical translator below 16 to 18 cents.
(Heck, you see what I mean? Just caught myself playing the very game I am just "poltering" about).
What our chosen profession needs is a healthy dose of self-esteem. Markets all around the world are opening up and we're almost recession-proof. It is bad enough that many of our clients see the product "Translation" as necessary evil. Heck, who can blame them, manuals don't sell their goods. If the bid-wars keep going on like this we'll soon be like the construction industry in many western countries, where companies all over the place do jobs at a loss, just to have some work to do.
Lets be realistic, there are good clients out there that value good quality work and pay the price for it, but eventually it is not about goodwill. It's economics. The quality of the product we sell is hard to evaluate for many, and these "good" clients willing to pay the price will sooner or later hear about that "thing on web" where translations cost 50% less then what they're paying now.
Wow, now that was some venting.
I hope I am not offending anybody, but that's just how I see it. I just don't see a point in being mad at those who ask. They may display a lack of "compassion" towards their fellow translators. But the problem of "exploitation" is older than money. One thing changed though, nowadays it takes two, and as long as there are people willing to do it, there'll be people who ask for it. I mean look at it, you cc an email to a hundred people you've never even seen before, and a day later you got a good product for 80% less than others. Heck if the rate was so bad, then why did he/she take it? I don't assume anybody here would pay say 50% more for the same car just out of plain generosity and concern for the poor car dealer. Hey, if he gives it up for that price...
And don't even make the mistake of thinking that anybody paying 2cents gets sub-standard work. It may not always be all that good, but to many it is sufficient to suit their needs.
So don't get me wrong, I am not advocating what is going on, not at all. Sometimes I am literally in rage over it. Yet we must not forget the reason why these "generous offerings" emerge. Because they actually work.
So, that's it for me. Feel free to tear me into pieces for it, but that's just my opinion. Only a view folks per language pair willing to take on such trash-offers are enough to keep it working, and being "Platinum" does not necessarily make you compassionate or socially responsible. Turn around the demand and supply principle, and make thrash-offers the product, then you'll see that the "product" thrash-offer only comes up because there is a "demand" for it. Folks who get their jobs online should be willing to commit to reasonable rates for themselves and stick to it. That's it, this is my minimum rate and I don't work for less. Those who think they won't find any clients without offering 4cent rates should simply think about changing their chosen profession. I think I can honestly say that any job I have taken offering highly discounted rates ended up im being some sort of disaster. Be it waiting 4 months for the money which wasn't enough anyway or project planning and management that was straight up pathetic, you name it and it was there. Once all translators and would-be translators using this platform will start simply rejecting or ignoring such pathetic offerings, they'll soon stop popping up in your mailbox. If that will ever happen though I don't know.
T.
[Edited at 2004-02-06 00:42]
[Edited at 2004-02-06 05:21] ▲ Collapse
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