The Reunion site (repeat)
Thread poster: Egmont

Egmont
Spain
Local time: 18:15
Afrikaans to Spanish
+ ...
Nov 18, 2002

Hello, and Welcome to

The Reunion Site


You\'ve been referred to this site for a good reason,

and for a good cause.

Please select below




If your company uses the services of translation/localization companies, please press here

If your company is a translation/localization company, please press here

If you are a translator/localizer, please press here



http://thereunion.5u.com/index.html







_________________



 

Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 18:15
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Seen this before! Nov 18, 2002

Now, it is not the first time this site pops up at proz.

Before, it was simply an appeal for better rates.

Now it ressembles furiously a plagiarism of www.FairTradeNet.org - same appeal, same reasoning step by step, just words rewritten. No services offered though.


And still anonymous.


Guys, come out into the open. Why do you need to hide behind a basically good idea?

Greetings

Maya



 

Egmont
Spain
Local time: 18:15
Afrikaans to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks... Nov 18, 2002

for your kind explanation...
[addsig]


 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 12:15
SITE FOUNDER
I don't think the site has changed Nov 18, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-11-18 10:15, mayagyan wrote:

Now, it is not the first time this site pops up at proz.

Before, it was simply an appeal for better rates.

Now it ressembles furiously a plagiarism of http://www.FairTradeNet.org - same appeal, same reasoning step by step, just words rewritten.




In all fairness, Maya, I do not think the site has changed since your site went online.


 

Egmont
Spain
Local time: 18:15
Afrikaans to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The Reunion SIte vs the Fair Trade Nov 18, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-11-18 10:15, mayagyan wrote:

Now, it is not the first time this site pops up at proz.

Before, it was simply an appeal for better rates.

Now it ressembles furiously a plagiarism of www.FairTradeNet.org - same appeal, same reasoning step by step, just words rewritten. No services offered though.


And still anonymous.


Guys, come out into the open. Why do you need to hide behind a basically good idea?

Greetings

Maya


I have just received a message with a link to that website and I thought it was interesting for all the colleagues but if you feel angry about it...maybe it is better to delete it...Fair play first...Best wishes for you...
[addsig]


 

Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc  Identity Verified
English to Spanish
The Reunion Site was already there long before FairTrade got online Nov 18, 2002

Hello there,


Dear Maya, as I say it was created way before FairTrade was online and some time before an online email list group was created for FairTrade.


I hope FairTrade is going nicely.


When I raised recognition that the Reunion site existed, a year or more ago, I said I would not uncover the name or names of the people behind it.


They have every right to remain anonymous.

As you comment, the idea was basically good and I don\'t see what the point is in knowing who said what if it is what was said that really matters.


If you have any concerns that \"they\" misterious people have tried, are trying or will try to compete or whatever with FairTrade, be assured that this is not the case.


In any case, you may email or phone me as usual... long time no hear!!


If I remember well all \"competition\" (so to speak) is a brief message in some Prozians\' (and maybe non-Prozians\') profiles making a statement, such as the one appearing in my own profile -which I assume by the way won\'t help us who have included it to get more jobs through ProZ.


Besides, Henry raised several issues when The Reunion initiative was started, basically concerning a lack of assurance of quality in the Reunion\'s site overall \"message\".



Dear Henry, about all that you mentioned in our private emails back and forth, concerning the need for a customer to have some kind of assurance that he or she\'s gonna get quality in return: I continue to think that customer will only be able to judge the quality of a translation after it\'s been done, and not before. This probably means that all of us pros must always do our best when working, and thus get some kind of reputation. I also continue to think (because I see it everyday when being asked to proofread or edit) that a majority of agencies _and_ customers, small and large, don\'t really care. Which by the way is indeed sad, as ways to improve quality can very probably be found.

(And not those of the LISA, please!)


Finally, I continue to think that, for any pro to be able to provide better quality, prices need to be raised.

The fact is that currently they are _fixed_ according to agencies needs, full stop.



Therefore I continue to support the Reunion Site, as I do support FairTrade.


I remember you also mentioned that the people behind the Reunion seemed to be trying to find a solution for all parties involved, and I agree.


It seems as well that they may be kind of philantropic people.


Personally, if I were to participate in some effort towards a solution acceptable by all parties involved, I\'d charge for my time!



Dear Alberto, may I ask what your intention was upon posting the Reunion\'s site\'s URL? I don\'t see that you make any comments on it?


Well, my time\'s run out! Too busy working!


Have a nice day all of you there!!


I\'ll be glad if you can drop my a line or two thru email, Thank You!




 

Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 18:15
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Pretty confusing! Nov 19, 2002

Well, the wording has changed - my memory is still pretty consistent. But who cares?

The more people press for fair rates, the better.


I just think it is not a good idea to remain anonymous.

It is not a good idea to ask for fair rates and not offer an solution.

And it is even a worse idea to use the site for advertising purposes.


And Daniel, I\'d like to know how you support our site FairTradeNet? Dozens of translators, some Web designers and programmers are at work, pro bono. Haven\'t seen any contribution of yours. Have I missed something?


And you want to realize Fair Trade and charging for it?


As I said, this is all pretty confusing.

Greetings

Maya


(By the way, I promised Henry not to recruit through proZ. I\'ll stick to it. Whoever is interested, will find us)




 

Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc  Identity Verified
English to Spanish
Maya, don't try to get me bullied into your game, whatever it is Nov 19, 2002

Not a single comma has changed in the Reunion Site since it was placed online before this last Summer.


What I\'m asking you is not to come round talking about plagiarism, my dear ex-friend, when you know it\'s not true.


In fact I have here a full historic of the emails you and I did exchange in the last six months, and indeed you\'re not mentioning here that last night I sent you a private email asking you why in hell are you taking it on the Reunion given that FairTrade obviously doesn\'t need that kind of thing.


Also my reply was quite clear on whom I was addressing my comments to: some were made to Henry, some were made to Alberto, and some were made to you.


In those made to you, there\'s no mention of my supporting your project in any _specific_ way. \"Support\" meant \"celebrate\". Certainly FairTrade is an extraordinary project, which is now a reality, and you don\'t need my support in any way.


i.e., I was stating that I personally celebrate that such organization exists, and many kudos to your hard work and that of your colleagues.


Concerning your personal ideas, or any other person\'s ideas, on Reunion remaining anonymous, on how it should have gone further in pursuing its objectives, or on choosing a domain name and paying for web hosting, I honestly don\'t care in the least.


You\'re gonna have to publicly apologize for stating that the Reunion has ever plagiarized anything, anywhere, or you\'re not going to see an answer from me anymore, indeed, I will ask whoever\'s responsible to ask you to withdraw your insensitive comments and apologize.


Finally, don\'t put words in my mouth, specifically:


\"And you want to realize Fair Trade and charging for it?\" --> I never said this. Could you kindly please indicate where you see this sentence in my previous reply?


By the way, on your remark:


\"Dozens of translators, some Web designers and programmers are at work, pro bono. Haven\'t seen any contribution of yours. Have I missed something?\"


So what do I have to with that, Ms.?

That\'s your and their project! Well, congratulations. Are you playing the \"let\'s compare\" game?

Why should I contribute to anything?


In short, very witty, Maya, though out of the point.


However, I\'m sure you\'ll get far.

You certainly have not saved energy in trying to discredit sites or people whom you know little or nothing about, and you\'ve done it selling lies, not only under this section, but also under the French and German forums.


Sorry, gotta go and the rules of Netiquette prevent me from going further, otherwise I would insult you, have no doubt.


END: See if you can apologize, or otherwise just forget about me, walk your own roads.





On 2002-11-19 01:10, mayagyan wrote:

Well, the wording has changed - my memory is still pretty consistent. But who cares?

The more people press for fair rates, the better.


I just think it is not a good idea to remain anonymous.

It is not a good idea to ask for fair rates and not offer an solution.

And it is even a worse idea to use the site for advertising purposes.


And Daniel, I\'d like to know how you support our site FairTradeNet? Dozens of translators, some Web designers and programmers are at work, pro bono. Haven\'t seen any contribution of yours. Have I missed something?


And you want to realize Fair Trade and charging for it?


As I said, this is all pretty confusing.

Greetings

Maya


(By the way, I promised Henry not to recruit through proZ. I\'ll stick to it. Whoever is interested, will find us)




 

Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 18:15
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Apologies? Every kind of it, please help yourself. Nov 19, 2002

Daniel, dear colleague,

That was worth it, for we know now - at least - who is behind that site.

I still do not understand why this should not be known.


Let people be the judge of your site.

Peace

Maya

(\"Dear ex-friend?\" You should have told me you were my friend before me becoming an ex. Did I again miss something here?)

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-11-19 09:28 ]


 

xxxTService  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:15
English to German
Stop that scam, please... Nov 19, 2002

The \"Reunion site\" is an embarrassing work of some novice who\'s incapable of designing web pages.

I will never follow the given advice to redirect customers to that work of [insert your favorite four-letter-word here] because text and design are awkward.


The sole intention is to generate money by utilizing multiple popups.


Unserious; that\'s all.


 

Egmont
Spain
Local time: 18:15
Afrikaans to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Paranoia... Nov 19, 2002

...is everywhere even here...what a pity!
[addsig]


 

Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc  Identity Verified
English to Spanish
Really Maya? Nov 19, 2002

Maya,


don\'t jump to conclusions too fast as to who is behind Reunion!

(By the way, do you do the same when translating? Aaag, I would\'t wanna even think of it)


Why don\'t you perform a search for the terms \"Renion Site\"... perhaps then you\'ll find a respectable number of translators supporting it.

I suggest that, once you get that information, you poke around with your blind(ing) stick and \"furiously\" quiz them, for instance:


- What\'s your relationship with the Reunion Site?

- Was it you who designed that awful site?

- Are you prepared to accept the consequences for you actions?

- Are you left wing or right wing?

- Do you believe in God?

- What did you have for dinner?

- What brand of underwear do you use?

- Are you willing to give me your phone number, fax number, all of your email addresses, your postal address, a cup of tea, your social security number and your birth certificate?

- Be aware that, should you not comply, you\'ll meet my Wrath, in the form of insults, lies and... (censored)


Ah! I almost forgot:


Sorry Maya, I apologize.

I stated that you and I were ex-friends. That was untrue.


Myself, I do make mistakes.




 

Daniel Alcaine-Rich, M.V., BSc  Identity Verified
English to Spanish
By the way folks, here's the real Maya Nov 19, 2002

Yes, I\'ve been working non-stop for 37 hours, only had a milkshake and a soyabean sandwhich (genetically modified, and I state here that I do support GM food, I\'m very much into biotechnology, and I like it), I\'m unber huge pressure to deliver a job for a client whom I\'m sorry, Maya, I can\'t disclose, but I wanted you all to have a good look at the real Maya.


Following is a true and exact copy of my email exchanges with this lovely person. Judge for yourselves. Maybe FairTrade should start looking for a different natural born leader.


Note: for a better comprehension, it\'s suggested that you read these messages in reverse order, i.e., starting with the message at the end and then moving upwards. This is a concatenated set of replies.


There we go!!!

P.S.: Have a good day Maya! Perhaps you ought to learn to respect people, whoever they are, whatever they do, whatever they earn...


---->>>>>>


From: \"FairTradeNet International Office\" <choffice@fairtradenet.org>

To: \"Daniel Alcaine-Rich\" <daniel.alcaine@eresmas.net>

Subject: Re: FairTradeNet

Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:23:18 +0100



Poor poor Daniel,

I feel so sorry for you.

Sincerely,

Maya


----- Original Message -----

From: \"Daniel Alcaine-Rich\" <daniel.alcaine@eresmas.net>

To: \"FairTradeNet International Office\" <choffice@fairtradenet.org>

Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:37 PM

Subject: Re: FairTradeNet




Maya, as far as I\'m concerned, anyone uncapable of saying \"I\'m sorry\"

cannot possibly be a good pro, translator, leader or whatever.


Save your lamentations for yourself, I don\'t care whether you work 15

hours or 24.

Yesterday you just screwed my day, which by the way was my daughter\'s

birthday.


Now simply piss off, I don\'t wanna hear from you,

ciao ciao



At 10:13 19/11/02 +0100, you wrote:

You\'re playing tricks here, Daniel, and you do not even sign your

message.

The only thing I have to say again is that The Reunion in basically a

good idea and I wish you all the luck with it.

But what does it achieve?

It\'s only a rhetorical question.

Greetings

Maya


For the rest, I work 15 hours a day and I do really not have time to

start an argument. Sorry for that.




----- Original Message -----

From: \"Daniel Alcaine-Rich\" <daniel.alcaine@eresmas.net>

To: \"FairTradeNet International Office\" <choffice@fairtradenet.org>

Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:12 AM

Subject: Re: FairTradeNet



Maya,


further to your intervention on a posting by albertov at the ProZ

<translator coop> section, I see that you also wrote similar words in

the French and German forums (I don\'t speak German, but I do speak French).


Now, dear, I think you acted in quite an insensitive way -if your aim

is to recruit translators for FairTrade, that\'s ok, but couldn\'t you have omitted the part in which you stated that Reunion is a bad copy of FairTrade?


You knew of Reunion\'s existence before you started the FairTrade Yahoo

Group... I\'m most aware of that because you contacted me after I

uncovered Reunion\'s existence on one posting at ProZ more or less six months ago.


You could\'ve at least warned me that you were going to try this kind of

approach.


A kind apology wouldn\'t do any harm, and I\'d feel more like backing you

-even though it\'s clear that you don\'t need me to back you, that\'s for

sure.


Have a nice day




At 01:27 15/06/02 +0200, you wrote:

Yes, you can give my email address.



Salut Daniel,

but this is only for you (PLEASE)

http://www.fairtradenet.org/test/index.htm

This is the site. We finally put it into the open, since nobody has

the address, because I have done the corrections but Robyn is sick and

cannot put them on.. I now have direct access do make the corrections. I\'ll try to do them over the week-end.


In the meantime, I have gotten so many replies from Spanish and

Brazilian translators, I am completely overhelmed. So the question is: If a Columbian or Argentinan translated part of the site, would it be easy to do the proofreading?

Could you give me your opinion on that?


It is really lovely to get to know you and I am sure that you are, as

many how contacted me, a great translator. You should see the CVs I got. It make me MAD, really MAD to think that all those professionals get peanuts for their work.


If this works, and it must work, I\'ll have the biggest recompense of

my life. That is why I always think of what is to come: the marketing

effort. Clients, clients, clients. Without it, no use. I spend my days copying email addresses. Stupid work, my eyes get crossed. But it has to be done.


Tiene cuidado, wish I could give you some work. Maybe once it works.

You must become a member of the admission jury and that will be paid (a

little) once we have some money.


All my regards

Maya


----- Original Message -----

From: \"Daniel Alcaine-Rich\" <daniel.alcaine@eresmas.net>

To: <choffice@fairtradenet.org>

Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 12:57 AM

Subject: Re: FairTradeNet



Hi Maya,


I know of a Spanish translator or two who might be able to help.

Indeed a colleague asked me about you when I posted at the French forum. I kept my mouth well shut, as I\'ll continue to keep it shut concerning who created or didn\'t create the humble-rumble Reunion site.

I can ask her to get in touch with you - I reckon she wouldn\'t like

to be contacted by you or by anyone else without her permission, all of a sudden.


Thank you for your offer to pay me for translating the FairTrade

site - allow me to decline the offer, I\'ll be pleased to do it for free.

You may wish to send me a page or two so that I can see what it

looks like and I\'ll try to find some spare time to translate them.


I can\'t understand the animosity either, it\'s really puzzling, some

people even seem to be going paranoid. Maybe they have shares in the major companies, who knows!? Anyway...


talk to you soon, let me know if I can give your email address to

these two people.

-daniel



From: \"FairTradeNet International Office\" <choffice@fairtradenet.org>

To: <drich@es.inter.net>

Subject: Re: FairTradeNet

Date sent: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:45:25 +0200


Hola Daniel,

Great to hear from you. In the meantime, I had time to go through

your posting. So many answers in such a brief time. I felt everything was covered, so I did not make a comment.


On thing that is bothering me: the anonymosity. Why can\'t people

stand up and be counted for such a vital question? I do not feel, like

others, that it is just whining and complaining. It is stating a fact. But I wish I could get in contact with the originator of that message. He definitely should not hide. There is not even a feedback possibility on this site.


And this - the anonymosity - gives everyone an excuse to avoid the

real question. That is the way at proZ. They all have a mouthful to tell but never act. If you want to change things, you have to act bold.


For our website, I had some responses, also from moderators

(probably to spy on) icon_wink.gif. But not enough to get the work done. What I neeed is another Spanish translator or two or three, - good one\'s, and the same number for Portuguese, who will take care of the website translation (the public pages for a starter). And they should later act as an admission jury, for I only want qualified professionals on this site. Would you know anyone who could help? For the time being, this has to be pro bono work. But later, I want those people remunerated for what they do. It is not in my habit to ask people for help and not paying them. If I could, I would use my own money.

But I do not have any. And I have not earned a cent in the past six

weeks, because I really want to get this thing going. The same for Robyn, the graphist-webmaster in the States.


Why I am doing it? Because the work to be had is simply not

worthwhile. I rather starve than work for those rates. I just could pay my cleaning lady (the one I do not have) with those rates. You say I am philantropic, but I am not. I just think someone has to start something to get out of this mess.

Because everybody suffers. I know about Spain and it is a shame. Our

own government offices take advantage of those rates, have their stuff

translated elsewhere. And what happens? I find typical Swiss

questions from Americans and Latino-Amercians on proZ. Questions only Swiss translators can answer. Should I help my colleagues? In the beginning I did. Then I stopped.

And I started thinking.


I understand that you do not have time to help. You have to find

work to feed you family. (All the big mouths on proZ pretend having enough work. But I simply do not believe it. Not at decent rates, anyway.) The problem is: You won\'t find work at decent rates. That\'s a fact. So it is a catch 22 situation.


How are you going to solve it?

Give me your cheapest rate (I hate asking for it). Maybe, if no

other work is coming in, I could make an effort and pay you. But you see: If everyone wants to be paid for something I am not paid for and for something that should benefit us all, I simply will not be able to do it.


I have one volunteer for the Spanish version. But she has kids and

her studies and a little work, she won\'t be able to do everything. She\'s a good one. But the site needs more than just one.


What do you think?

Greetings

Maya


My phone number is +41 22 771 18 39

If you call me, I call straight back.



From: <drich@es.inter.net>

To: \"FairTradeNet International Office\" <choffice@fairtradenet.org>

Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 4:23 PM

Subject: Re: FairTradeNet



Dear Maya:


It seems that we have similar goals, except that your approach is

far more philantropic, and ambitious, at the same time.

And it certainly is proactive!


Right now I just hope we can influence agencies, and if possible,

end-customers, to make them see that freelance (and non-freelance) translation is a bad paid profession, and yet, it\'s one of

the cornerstones for Their success, so they should care more about

translators as resources they should keep happy.


That\'s why I\'m promoting that website, and I don\'t know who created

it either. I only a got to know of it through a tip that was published in an email list.


I like your idea, however, at present I\'m fully dedicated to getting

work right now - even if this seems to show a lack of solidarity on my part, you might know what the situation in Spain is. This

year is really critical for me and my family, so I need immediate,

and constant, income.


However, if I can manage to buy me some spare time, be assured that

I\'ll contact you to help you with the translation of your projected site, materials, etc. .


Sorry I wasn\'t in when you phoned.

If you send me your phone number, I\'ll call you as soon as I have a

spare moment - that much, I can do. I would insist on my calling you rather than the other way round as I would have to find an

adequate time for any conversations.


Thank you,

Best Regards.


P.S.: I\'m keeping all this confidential, as per your request.




 

Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 18:15
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Amen ! Nov 20, 2002

Thank you Daniel,

for publishing those old mails meant to be confidential. But that is old stuff. It reminds me of were we were 5-6 months ago and what www.fairtradenet.org has achieved in the meantime.


Database is still not complete - but anyone knowing what kind of work is involved would not be astonished. For the rest, we are ready.


Let\'s put an end to this useless interventions.People have other fish to fry.

Greetings

Maya


 


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