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Trados 2007 and Windows XP Service Pack 3
Thread poster: JCEC

JCEC  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 23:55
Member
English to French
Jun 29, 2008

I took advantage of the group buy because the cost seemed somewhat more reasonable than the suggested retail price.

The day following the purchase, we got a call from the Visa Security Centre enquiring about the purchase because SDL's site is apparently inadequately protected for secure transactions.

I downloaded Trados from the SDL site and, before doing anything else, performed a full system diagnostic, defragmented and scanned my hard disk, restarted my laptop and finally installed Trados. The installation was slow but successful and I was able to load the product and read the help files.

I turned off the laptop but, when I rebooted later, my user profile was no longer accessible and Windows returned all sorts of error messages. It took me the better part of a day to get rid of the messages, create a new user profile, reset all my preferences and return to my original configuration. Then, I noticed the language bar had disappeared and was no longer accessible in Regional Settings. After adding languages at random, it reappeared and remained active after deleting the unwanted languages. There were no viruses and no spyware on the system and the only explanation I can think of is that the Trados Install is not fully compatible with Windows XP Service Pack 3.

After all of this, I noticed that some applications no longer loaded or behaved erratically. I resolved this problem by removing the Trados Quick Start link from the Startup menu and restarting the system.

I then decided to try something simple like aligning two three-page PowerPoint presentations with WinAlign and ended up with a total disaster. The source and target segments were so far apart that I found some of them on separate screen pages. I ended up doing a cut and paste of the presentations into two Word documents and generating a TMX file with a little utility I had cooked up months ago in Visual Basic.

That's all for today.

John

[Modifié le 2008-07-02 14:42]


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
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Did you by any chance check the .NET Framework and JRE versions? Jun 29, 2008

I admit I did not find this information documented somwhere, or at least not so, that I could now quote the source, but I was told what I know by support people by SDL Trados.

When you install SDL Trados on a PC which is not a new one with clean fresh WinXP install, a lot of programs might have already installed themselves and numerous help utillities, such as Java Runtime and so on, in a varety of different versions.
However, SDL Trados requires certain versions of the mentionen NET and JRE utilities. If the installer does find similar, but updated version of those in your system, it might omit the installation of this utilities, leaving you with the problem the software wouldn't work.
The necessary versions are:
Microsoft .NET Framework 2.0 (without a service pack)
Java Runtime Environment J2SE 5.0 Update 10
Java Runtime Environment J2SE 5.0 Update 12

Please also note, that you may of course upgrade those utilities after you installed SDL Trados. For example I do also have .NET Framework 2.0 SP1 and Java(TM) 6 Update 5 beside some other different versions of those.

If you wanna a clean install of SDL Trados, I would suggest to keep exactly this sequence

  • Operating system
  • All system drivers, graphic drivers (without all unnecessary bells&whistles for gaming or switching all the screen parameters, which we translators in fact do not need at all)
  • OS sevice packs (see note below)
  • Office including service packs
  • Multiterm (installs J2SE 5.0 update 10)
  • SDL Trados (installs J2SE 5.0 update 12)

All those informations are according to what I did on my PCs, was told by support, and can remember from my last SDL Trados installation some month ago.
As for the Windows XP service pack situation: the service pack 3 for WinXP does not seem to be a good solution, at least at the time being. Even here on ProZ I've read someone complaining about problems caused by SP3. Although I'm not against installing updates from MS to my Windows PC, I still continue to work with SP2, as this configuration is very stable. So far I will also avoid installing SP3 because up to now I did not find any computer magazine with a full test of its advantages.
Regarding your problems with Windows accout - I do not see any connection between SDL Trados installation and a problem there. Or did you install the software only for you as PC user? This is something I never did (I always install for all users of my PC - I'm all of them), so due to lack of experience here I have to admit, that there might be something.

Regarding your problem with Winalign, I must simply quote what I recently found on SDL Trados training materials:

According to SDL TRADOS Support statistics, 60% of support problems encountered by users are due to lack of basic training.

I understand fully, that this is a very unpopular statemet, but I'm afraid I must reckon it true.
Did you preopare the files somehow? Did you check, that the structure of both presentations is the same? What method did you use? Simply opening the ppts in Winalign? Or maybe you converted them to ttx before you started? Were the languages set properly? Did you care about abbreviations list?
The alignment process is quite easy in fact, if you pay attention to some basic things. Usually it is enough to controll every 20-30 units, if they fit. If they don't, you need to resolve the problem and than can restart the alignment from the current position. This may save hours of work. But even more important than the process itself is a good preparation of files. If the file structure (I mean paragraphs and so on) does not fit, you will run into problems in Winalign.

So far my comments for today
BR
Jerzy


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lexical  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 05:55
Portuguese to English
have they ever heard of user-friendliness? Jun 29, 2008

To be quite frank, I am getting sick of hearing Trados/SDL users being blamed for their inability to make the program work. Apparently, they should have read the manual from cover to cover and attended a training course before installing the software. This is as primitive as the training to handle the early IBM PCs in the early 1990s.

I seem to remember that Windows 3x once came with a printed manual which you needed to refer to but Microsoft quickly made the program user friendly and robust in later versions. This is also true of virtually all the programs I have on my computer - with the sole exception of Trados.

Conspiracy theorists will say that Trados makes their software deliberately unfriendly to earn more from their paid technical assistance service, but I think that's naive and unfair. It's much more likely that it is because they are plain incompetent.

I am sure Jerzy is a jolly nice chap, and extremely helpful to JCEC in suggesting literally hours of what ought to be unnecessary work to (try to) get a decent installation of Trados. Those who are close to Trados don't seem to understand how ridiculous their advice is - it's on a par with saying "Have you tried dismantling and re-assembling the clutch on your car every morning - it should work perfectly then".

Of all the software I have ever had on my computer, Trados is the most expensive, the least robust and the least user friendly. That's why I deleted it.


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:55
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Well, I'm neither Trados-related nor close to them Jun 29, 2008

lexical wrote:
...
I am sure Jerzy is a jolly nice chap, and extremely helpful to JCEC in suggesting literally hours of what ought to be unnecessary work to (try to) get a decent installation of Trados. Those who are close to Trados don't seem to understand how ridiculous their advice is - it's on a par with saying "Have you tried dismantling and re-assembling the clutch on your car every morning - it should work perfectly then".


I don't feel like "jolly nice chap", and I don't feel my advices go to "dismantle your car and reassemble it before you start". Usually - at least in cases I know and have dealt with, the installation has worked out of the box. But as usual with computers, even simple stuff as installing an OS may turn out in heavy work (happened to me with my last PC, where I tried to install Windows XP without any SP and than update it with SP2, which resulted in loss of two days for reinstalling namely everything there on WinXP SP2).
When I tell other people to perform the installation in a certain way, so this is not because I'm a jolly nice chap, but just because I hope this way to help this particular person and maybe some other. In fact I published this suggestion not the first time on ProZ, if you look on other threads, there is already such a list there. I don't remember the exact thread now, but it doesn't matter.
So I do not see my advices being ridiculous in any way.

Of all the software I have ever had on my computer, Trados is the most expensive, the least robust and the least user friendly. That's why I deleted it.

Well, this is your decision. Trados is certainly not the most expensive software I know. It is also not the least robust, at least not as version 8.2.0.835. And it is quite user friendly from my point of view. I did not read any manual for Trados in full, just read some necessary paragraphs and consulted the help, where necessary. Not very different to how I learned to use Word or to use a DOS PC back in the Stone Age. Now I'm providing trainings, so I feel I dare to say what I said. And I say it again - the biggest problems with this "user unfriendly" software and its usage are due to the lack of basic knowledge how to use it. This does not necessarily mean to participate in a course, but what the heck, why on earth not? If I wanna drive a car, I have to get a driving license. Is investing of 300 Euros in a professional course so much? I wouldn't say so. But again - this is my point of view.

BR
Jerzy


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RichardDeegan
Local time: 22:55
Spanish to English
60 % of probnlems due to alck of training Jun 29, 2008

"According to SDL TRADOS Support statistics, 60% of support problems encountered by users are due to lack of basic training."
To me that sounds very, very frightening. In other words, 40% of the problems are innate and incurable?


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:55
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Not quite Jun 30, 2008

According to SDL TRADOS Support statistics, 60% of support problems encountered by users are due to lack of basic training.

This means simply, that the number of problems reported to support could be reduced by two/third if the user would use the software properly.
But it does not say anything about what kind of problems are the other 40%.


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 23:55
English to French
+ ...
Well, for starters, if it installed correctly... Jul 1, 2008

I'm not new to computers and I have used a LOT of software before using Trados. Still, this is the one software, paid or free, that I have had the most trouble with. And I do whip out my manual first thing when something seems to be amiss, to make sure it is not I who is mishandling the poor thing.

What strikes me about the 60% of user-reported problems being caused by
lack of training
is that they sell a very expensive piece of "software" to people without even mentioning that the only bloody way they will ever get it to run properly is to buy training before even installing it and then to also buy a support agreement (setting you back by at least another thousand bucks).

I dunno about you folks, but when I buy a pound of potatoes and there is no label attached to them warning that they will refuse to cook unless I also buy a new pressure-cooker and a peeler (from the same merchant, of course), I expect them to cook. And they usually do. And if they didn't, you can be sure I would get reimbursed.


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:55
Member (2003)
Polish to German
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Software, potatoes and driving licenses Jul 1, 2008

Indeed, when you buy potatoes, you do expect them to cook.
But are you not expected to peel them upfront? Why do you know that? Learned that as a child at home most probably. But if you buy potatoes, do you simply buy some or do you prefer a special kind? Some of them may cook 20 minutes, some other half an hour... Makes some difference to me and requires some basical knowledge.
But this is not a good comparison - you compare something very easy with a product which is a bit more complicated.
I assume all (or most of you) do have a driving license. This means you can and may drive a car. A car has an engine and four wheels (usually). An excavator does also have four wheel (at least some of them) and an engine. Would you even dare to drive an excavator without taking a special course? Left alone that no one would allow you to get in without a very special training...

And why shall the software company tell you you need a training? When you buy Adobe InDesign, is there any information, that you will not be able to use this software properly unless you are a skilled layout professional? I assume not. And you will hopefully not argue, that you can use InDesign without all those special knowlege. Taking even Microsoft Word, do you really think one can use the software in full without using a handbook or help function? Not at all. You will of course learn the basics fast - and in this case Word turns out to be very user friendly (btw, after so many years of different Office versions would you without any limitation say, that the new Office 2007 is very user friendly?).
When you notice you cannot do something using a particular software, what do you do than? Well, I would assume you do the same as I do - first trying to use help. If this is not enough I read the manual. Should this bring no solution, I ask someone who knows the software better than me. Would I still not be able to use the software properly and need it for my work, I would consider booking a course.
So I do not see why this should be different with SDL Trados.


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tectranslate ITS GmbH
Local time: 05:55
German
+ ...
??? Jul 1, 2008

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:

I'm not new to computers and I have used a LOT of software before using Trados. Still, this is the one software, paid or free, that I have had the most trouble with. And I do whip out my manual first thing when something seems to be amiss, to make sure it is not I who is mishandling the poor thing.

Same here and yes, working with Trados can be very frustrating at times, but I believe the 60% figure to be true nonetheless.

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:

What strikes me about the 60% of user-reported problems being caused by
lack of training
is that they sell a very expensive piece of "software" to people without even mentioning that the only bloody way they will ever get it to run properly is to buy training before even installing it and then to also buy a support agreement (setting you back by at least another thousand bucks).

If there's one thing that you can't accuse them of, it is reluctance to try and sell training and support to their customers - on the contrary: I often hear how "pushy" they are in trying to sell those.

Viktoria Gimbe wrote:

Words about potatoes and pressure cookers

Are we now comparing potatoes with software? That's even worse than apples and oranges!


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 23:55
English to French
+ ...
You guys are not getting it Jul 1, 2008

What if you buy a piece of software, follow all install instructions to the millimeter and still don't succeed in installing it properly? I don't think the lack of training argument holds here. I also don't think the argument about being a skilled layout professional to be able to use InDesign holds either - I am not talking about using the software, just about installing it properly.

Meanwhile, my potatoes are ready...


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JCEC  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 23:55
Member
English to French
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you JerZy for your detailed reply Jul 1, 2008

The software was installed in the following order:

Windows XP Professional
Service Pack 2 for XP
Service Pack 3 for XP
Office 2003 Professional
Service Pack 2 for Office 2003
Trados 2007

If Trados is sensitive to the version of .NET, Java, or a Service Pack, it is up to the Install procedure to handle the issue or, at the very least, to detect it and provide instructions which can be understood by a user who is not a computer expert.

Trados was installed for all users but the user profile with administrator rights under which the installation was performed became inaccessible. The only potential warning received was that Trados erroneously detected my environment as Windows XP Service Pack 2 during the installation.

If, after two years of totally trouble-free daily operation, a computer starts acting up immediately after installing a new product, it is not unreasonable to assume there is a causal link. Poorly designed install procedures are, after all, one of the main sources of problems encountered with Windows.

The translation of the PowerPoint file was done directly in a copy of the original and the alignment was tested on the two PowerPoint files. I double-checked and confirm that the number of sentences and paragraphs is identical and there are no abbreviations. The problem is that the 40 text boxes or so were presented in a totally different order (while preserving the order of their content) in the source and target columns of WinAlign which rendered the realignment unmanageable. It probably would have worked better if I had translated the files with TagEditor but then I wouldn't have needed WinAlign, would I?

But this is not my main concern. If, after having taken all these precautions, one runs into this kind of problem, what of the average translator who is looking forward to a hassle-free install and operation?

I expect a very expensive product to install properly or, at the very least, to notify me of the fact that it has not been fully tested in the environment currently recommended by Microsoft.

Regards,

John


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:55
Member (2003)
Polish to German
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I agree that this should work other Jul 1, 2008

And I count myself lucky (maybe even very lucky), as I do not and did not have such massive problems with the software.
Obviously Service Pack 3 for WinXP is crucial here - and this is a very good hint (for me) NOT to install it until it will be secure.
As for the alignment - I've done a lot of such jobs and never encountered such behaviour you describe. Of course I had different problems with aligning files, but all of them were caused by bad segmentation (in original files) and eventualy I was always able to get rid of that.

Regarding the cooked potatoes I must again admit, that I'm a lucky guy. I not only have my potatoes ready, but also the french fries with some additional stuff


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tectranslate ITS GmbH
Local time: 05:55
German
+ ...
SP3 Jul 2, 2008

I'm currently trying to support a Swedish colleague who is trying to install Trados 2007 SP2 Build 835 on Windows XP without much success. After reading this thread, it turns out that he, too, has XP SP3 installed (everything's running fine here on XP SP2).

The plot is thickening - seems Trados 2007 SP2 and XP SP3 don't go together. Hopefully, the boys from the SDL programming department will tackle this one real soon, as downgrading to XP SP2 consumes a lot of time and energy, especially if the Windows installation is corrupted in the attempt.


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Tony M  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 05:55
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French to English
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For the record... Jul 3, 2008

Jerzy Czopik wrote:
Well, I'm neither Trados-related nor close to them


And in the same post

Jerzy Czopik wrote:
Now I'm providing trainings, so I feel I dare to say what I said.


Just for the record, Jerzy, is it not true that you are in fact a Trados trainer? Surely that makes you both 'related' and 'close'? It also explains why you have access to all this 'insider information' that is not widely or readily available to us 'mere mortals', the poor old customers.

See also:

Budapest Conference 2007 - Trados training session forum (5th ProZ ...

The trainer will be Jerzy Czopik, a very active Proz.com member, who held similar and very successful Trados training sessions in the regional conferences ...

www.proz.com/.../62530-budapest_conference_2007_trados_training_session_forum-.html

[Edited at 2008-07-03 07:59]


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tectranslate ITS GmbH
Local time: 05:55
German
+ ...
In fact... Jul 3, 2008

Tony M wrote:

Jerzy Czopik wrote:
Well, I'm neither Trados-related nor close to them


Just for the record, Jerzy, is it not true that you are in fact a Trados trainer? Surely that makes you both 'related' and 'close'? It also explains why you have access to all this 'insider information' that is not widely or readily available to us 'mere mortals', the poor old customers.

And in the same post

Jerzy Czopik wrote:
Now I'm providing trainings, so I feel I dare to say what I said.


[Edited at 2008-07-03 07:50]

In fact, Jerzy is in Stuttgart right now at Trados Germany's headquarters, I believe. I'll leave it to him to detail his relationship with Trados, but afaik, it's not like he's employed with them.

I also dare say that Jerzy does not have any "secret insider" information - we're in frequent contact, often exchanging tips and tricks regarding Trados and all sorts of technical problems and we're generally on the same level.

And while I don't know for sure about Jerzy (he sure seems lively on the phone, although I have yet to meet him in person) I'm certainly a mere mortal. One big difference is that he has a support contract with SDL which seems to greatly facilitate communication with them and I don't (I refuse to pay for that).

Regards,
Benjamin

[Edited at 2008-07-03 08:43]


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