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advice on getting used to Trados after Wordfast?
Thread poster: irishpolyglot

irishpolyglot
Ireland
Local time: 21:32
French to English
+ ...
May 15, 2009

Hello!! I've made the plunge and invested in Trados software (a month ago...) and not used it at all, but my main outsourcer (who urged me to start using it) has given me a job that now needs its TMs with the translation itself so I have no choice but to start with it!
The problem is that I have only ever used Wordfast and was quite happy with that! I can see in the project set-up that Trados can be useful for organising projects, timing etc., but the actual translating part of it is a little confusing for me.

I'm trying to get into a familiar environment of going from segment to segment within word and I have only managed to do this within Trados' software itself. Information I have found online hasn't been too much help, but how can I use it in Word like I am used to? If someone could give me links to relevant tutorials etc., I'd be much appreciative!! I don't need the "what is a CAT tool" or setting up a project etc. but to master the translation part itself. Any other general advice? Should I try to use a system close to my familiar Wordfast layout, or just start over and learn how to do it the Trados way?

Within Trados' segmentation program is fine except for the fact that this document has a lot of diagrams that it would be great to see. Is that straightforward like in Wordfast? I couldn't immediately see how to search the TM for a word that I already translated for example.

Excuse how naive I may be about the whole thing, I've been thrown in the deep end of Trados! I have all weekend to try to train myself in it before I get back to work at least. If anyone familiar with Wordfast or who also had a similar transition has advice for me, it would be much appreciated!!!! I'm sure eventually I wondered how I lived without Trados, but for the moment I have lots of learning to do!!

Thanks so much for any help


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Joan Berglund  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:32
French to English
working in word in Trados May 15, 2009

I am new to Trados as well, so someone else may have more useful advice, but I thought I would get things started. If the problem is that after you installed Trados, the toolbar does not appear in MS Word as you expected like the Wordfast one does it may be because the TRADOS8.dot file did not automatically copy to your Word folder as it should have. You can follow the directions in the chapter on using Workbench with MS Word of the Workbench user's guide (chapter 3 in my version) to find out how to do this manually - please post again if you can't find these and I will go into more detail. Now as to why a $1000 program doesn't work out of the box and requires manual fixes, that is a separate issue. I bought Trados because a potentially important client requested it too, so far I am not loving it. Wordfast never had me pulling my hair out.

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irishpolyglot
Ireland
Local time: 21:32
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
the only problem so far is my WF expectations May 15, 2009

Thanks for getting the discussion started Joan! Actually, the trados dot has installed fine and I do indeed see it as a separate tab in Word (2007). I'm just not used to the new layout compared to Wordfast. I haven't run into any actual problems (yet) other than my lack of familiarity. So maybe you or someone else can give me tips on how to get into it quicker with my Wordfastesque mentality?

I am trying to stay positive about the whole Trados thing despite all the comfort and security I had in Wordfast. Like you, I made the change because of pressure from my main client. I was offering them Wordfast's TMX but they were not at all interested of course

One frustration I've had so far is that I paid for the 2007 edition and a week later they had offers for the 2009 edition upgrade on their website and on Proz!! It's my own fault for not doing the research, and at least the offer they had it on means it's only about 50 euro more expensive for the upgrade than it would have been if I had bought the current edition + upgrade offers they have now. Oh well! Actually, is there even a reason for me to need to upgrade? Once I get used to the 2007 edition I might see what the new one has to offer and if it's worth it.

I've been told that once I really get into Trados I'll wonder how I managed without it, but I'm still sceptical and think that I'll end up only using it when asked to, unless I can get my head around how to smoothly translate my files. Any one else with some thoughts on how I should make the adjustment?


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 23:32
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
No problem at all May 15, 2009

You better load the Word-file into Tageditor and translate there. Trados in Word seems to through up problems once in a while.
But you can continue to use Wordfast classic too. Last week a customer asked me to translate a Word-file. When I had done it already with Wordfast 5.5 she suddenly remembered that she needed the TM as a Trados export (txt).
I exported the Wf TM into TMX, created a new TM in Trados Wordbench, imported the tmx and exported it as txt. There you are.

Regards
Heinrich


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KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 21:32
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
When dealing with Trados... May 15, 2009

... after almost any other CAT tool, the old adage applies: "better a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy". Being Irish, I'm sure you can understand that

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irishpolyglot
Ireland
Local time: 21:32
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
do everything in tageditor? May 15, 2009

OK, so do you suggest I do the entire translation in Tageditor and maybe just occasionally refer to the original Word file? I was trying that and it just seemed like a downgrade to have just text to look at rather than the document that I'm used to. I am sure many translators work like that, and I suppose I could adjust. Does Trados get all text, including annoying text boxes into the tageditor? I always edited them separately in Wordfast. What about autosave?? Does Trados save the TM after every segment is added (like Wordfast)? Or have an autosave option (like MS Word)? I am worried about crashes and these auto-saves have saved me a lot of times. I didn't see any autosave or even basic save option in tageditor directly.

I also tried to export a Wordfast TMX file imported to the workbench, but didn't have much luck. Even if I did I'm sure my client mentioned that they wanted the several files that Trados produces. Surely they are organized better for sharing with other Trados user if created entirely in Trados? If I can just convert all files I would do with Wordfast anyway, I've basically paid all this money for a fancy file conversion utility if I just stick with Wordfast...


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 23:32
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
TE is better May 16, 2009

Yes, textboxes are no problem in TE. The translated document will look like the original. You'll have noticed that Wordfast is moving away from Word too, the new Wordfast is only an editor like Trados TE. But simple documents are easy to translate the old style in Word with Wf classic.
If the client wants you to send him the original Trados TM you have to pack the five files into one Zip.
Regards
Heinrich


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Ulf Samuelsson  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 15:32
Member (2007)
English to Swedish
+ ...
Why not keep using Wordfast anyway? May 16, 2009

It is my opinion that Wordfast is better to use than Trados, if there is a choice - and there always is.

Many agencies demand that Trados is used in situations where it wouldn't make a difference if Wordfast was used. And you might even say that all jobs that require Trados can be translated with Wordfast – all you need is to have at least the demo version of Trados installed.

This is what you do:
1. Create an empty Trados memory if you do not already have one.
2. Use this empty memory and run an analysis on the files (.rtf, .doc, .xls, .ttx, etc.).
3. In the analysis results window, click on Export Unknown Segments and save the file with the file type "Word (*.rtf)".
4. Open a new empty Word document and insert the rtf file (menu Insert -> File) and save as a .doc file. (This step is because the *.rtf file created by Trados is unstable and can easily make Word crash, and also because you can use the shortcut Shift+F5 in .doc files to quickly get back to where you left off if you reopen the file after having closed it.)
5. Use the segmentation rule "Segmentation method: Paragraph" to ensure that you get the segments as they are seen by Trados (each separate segment is a paragraph in the exported file).
6. Now translate the file with Wordfast as usual.
7. You then clean up the finished translation with Trados to create the Trados memory for your job.

If your version of Trados only is the demo version, then you have to estimate how much of the file that fits in a Trados Demo memory and split the file in equal parts that can be cleaned and run, one by one, on the files. (Open one segment at a time in Trados until you get the message that the memory is too large for demo mode, then you can see, roughly, how many segments you can have per memory.)

Then run Translate in Trados Translator's Workbench with each memory and then clean up the files so you can proofread to verify that all text now is translated correctly.

I've been using this procedure since 2002 without any problem.

Ulf

[Edited to correct typos]

[Edited at 2009-05-16 15:07 GMT]


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irishpolyglot
Ireland
Local time: 21:32
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
interesting work around! May 16, 2009

@Ulf
Very interesting work around!! This is something I would be interested in applying Can someone give me any reasons why I shouldn't; or anything in Trados that I'd be missing out on?

Just some questions about this approach;
1. Is the result exactly the same? i.e. 5 files produced by Trados that I can provide the client with as well as the translation.
2. As far as Wordfast is concerned, do I do everything the same? I presume its own TM is ignored in the final delivery process.
3. What about spell-checking? I currently spell-check after I do Wordfast's clean-up (since I don't usually share my TMs, it doesn't matter if they have spelling mistakes). Can the spellcheck be applied in Trados as you finalize it? (rather than after in Word as I usually do, which would lead to a TM with mistakes in it). I know that Trados applies spell-check in tageditor as you finish each segment, but that wouldn't be applied in this case.
3. Does this mean that the tagging envelopes etc. are the same in both Word and Trados? Is this why I can just do the whole thing in Wordfast once I go through your steps, and as far as Trados is concerned I never left its system?
Thanks!

@Heinrich
I am still curious as to what these 5 files actually are. All I know of is Wordfast's familiar single TM. How can 5 files be produced in a translation project other than the target document and TM? Where do I find these files after the project has completed?
I have used the only-editor approach with OmegaT before, so I suppose I could get used to it in Trados if I had to, if I decide not to use Ulf's interesting approach. I finally found the Word editable option, but do you recommend against doing that because of file conversion to RTF issues? Seems a bit risky for documents that aren't pure text.

Thanks so much for everyone helping me understand this and helping me to make the transition


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Ulf Samuelsson  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 15:32
Member (2007)
English to Swedish
+ ...
The 5 memory files May 16, 2009

Hi,

A Trados memory consists of a set of 5 files. The main file is the *.tmw file, the others have the extensions *.mwf, *.mtf, *.mdf and *.mii. You will also find two more files: *.log and *.csv, but they are only log files and not necessary memory files.

As long as you use paragraph segmenting in Wordfast, then my method will provide an exact Trados segmentation, and as you process the files in Trados before and after the translation, then you can deliver an updated Trados memory along with cleaned and uncleaned files (most of my clients prefer to receive uncleaned Trados files rather than a full memory).

The file you export from Trados with my procedure contains all the necessary tags, and Wordfast treat them as placeables, wich means that you get a translated file that is exactly as if you had translated it with Trados and it can be cleaned into a Trados memory with all the formatting information that Trados require.
The fact that Worfast store the segments differently in the Wordfast memory doesn't matter because it is the segmented file that you'll use to update the Trados memory, not an exported tmx file from Wordfast.

So, are there any Trados functions you'll be missing? No, not that I know of. But you'll be gaining all the Wordfast functions (glossary propagation, QC functions, easy search in references, blacklist, etc.).

You could check spelling segment for segment as you work in Wordfast, or at least before you clean up the translation in Trados as any repetitions are then only listed once, and any corrections you make will go into the memory.

Ulf


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irishpolyglot
Ireland
Local time: 21:32
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
thanks! May 16, 2009

Thanks for your clear explanations Ulf!
I'll try both methdos; pure Trados and Trados via Wordfast and see which one works best for me before I settle on one. Thanks so much for all your help


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KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 21:32
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TagEditor for Word files May 16, 2009

irishpolyglot wrote:
Does Trados get all text, including annoying text boxes into the tageditor?


As Heinrich already mentioned: yes. What I also find useful is the ease of excluding text in TE compared with working in the Word interface. Simply set the font property to "hidden" for text to be excluded. The hidden text will be embedded in tags and simply skipped over. If you get some idiotic assignment that is 200 pages long with bits of colored text scattered around in it to translate this can be a godsend doing search & replace of the hidden property based on text color. And tables are also generally far easier to deal with in TE, and if you have a table structure with merged cells that would lead to an endless loop with the "translate to next fuzzy" option in Word, it doesn't matter in TE.

I find TE incredibly useful sometimes for its filters (when they work), but the interface is horrible and slows me down, so I take the TTX files and translate them with other, more efficient tools.


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irishpolyglot
Ireland
Local time: 21:32
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
problems on first project May 17, 2009

Hello again!! I'm back on this thread! Hopefully someone can help me get my head around the problems I'm having on my first project
I tried to create a project through Synergy, but it collapsed with a
"System.ApplicationException: Exception thrown by TMFileServices during execution. ---> System.Runtime.InteropServices.COMException (0x80010105): The server threw an exception. (Exception from HRESULT: 0x80010105 (RPC_E_SERVERFAULT))"
error on the "Translate" step. I tried lots of things but couldn't get around this error. It's for 3 large (2-4MB) doc files. I tried converting DOC --> RTF --> DOC and doing it again (from a suggestion on a similar error in another forum), but that made no difference.

I have started over and tried to enable the Tageditor option instead (I had enabled Word translation) and it's even more confusing: the error is "This Microsoft Word document cannot be opened due to tracked changes that have not yet been accepted or rejected". I clicked the "Accept all changes" option in Word in all documents (then saved) AND "Process Documents with non accepted or rejected changes" in the filter settings, but the error comes up anyway, and ONLY for when I select Tageditor instead of Word for my translation.

And yet, it seems to be working fine if I ignore Synergy entirely and start just by using Translators Workbench with Word open at the same time. Translating works great, I can go through a lot of options in Workbench etc. Should I just forget about Synergy entirely then? What benefits are there by creating a project for my translation?

Sadly the most important step is also NOT working when I try this. To produce the final document, I tried both "Clean Up" and "Translate" options in the Workbench (with MS Word open, but the document itself closed) and it always gives me the error:
"The process cannot access the file because it is being used by another process". There are no other processes accessing the file, and MS Word had closed it for its RTF conversion.

How am I running into these problems? I'm sure it's something very simple. I'm familiar with the interfaces and happy to translate for now, but these issues are stopping me. I hope I can solve it soon, I need to start working on this project tomorrow morning...
Thanks for any help!!

[Edited at 2009-05-17 18:50 GMT]


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irishpolyglot
Ireland
Local time: 21:32
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Workbench crashing May 17, 2009

OK, I've given up on Synergy and I am trying it purely by Ulf's method. I have skipped some parts and seen how straightforward it is, and I think I will stick with that.

But with these particular documents I'm having issues with the Analysis. Trados Workbench crashes every time I try to run it on my files. I've definitely "accepted all changes", so I can't think what else to do. What could cause it to crash? It is just a Windows crash so there is no error to indicate what went wrong

Once I solve this issue I'll be ready to start this translation back in good old Wordfast!!
Ideas hugely appreciated!!


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irishpolyglot
Ireland
Local time: 21:32
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
sorry!!! Almost finished annoying the thread! May 17, 2009

I'm so sorry for spamming the forum so much this weekend!!!
To get over the crash issue I deleted code from the document (the document is about coding so there are lots of tags inside triangle brackets that may have caused the problem) AND several boxes with text in them. Not sure which one did the trick but it works now, and I can translate! I will put them back in manually later and add the few words in the text box to the TM.

My final question for Ulf, or anyone else who is familiar with his method;
the RTF file produced by "Export unknown segments" loses a lot of formatting (tables, alignment, spacing) so it is not really practical to be used as a source translation. What do you do with it? I would just use the original doc file with Wordfast and clean up with Trados. Not sure why that step of using the RTF export in a Doc file is necessary instead of the original, and if it is, how do I get formatting back?

Thanks so much for your otherwise clear explanation and sorry again for all of these messages!!


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