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what is the function of ?
Thread poster: Vito Smolej

Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 16:08
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
Dec 20, 2009

I have an RTF file (converted to TTX) with the said code regularly popping up once or twice per segment. The RTF may stem form InDesign or similar, but I am not sure. Here's an example of a sentence:

Die angezeigten Inhalte hängen sowohl von Ihren Einstellungen als auch von den eingelesenen daten ab.

The role of this tag must be either connected with the hyphenation, hard breaks, hard spaces ...

Any suggestion would be welcome.


TiA

Vito


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FarkasAndras
Local time: 16:08
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Optional hyphen Dec 20, 2009

That's an optional (discrete, soft, discretionary) hyphen (i.e. it marks where the word has to be automatically hyphenated if it happens to fall at the end of line:

http://www.proz.com/forum/sdl_trados_support/112649-should_i_remove_superfluous_tags.html

http://www.necco.ca/dv/pm_fm_quark.htm


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 16:08
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Discretionary hyphen Dec 20, 2009

Should be removed prior to translation or during the translation.
Is called "bedingter Trennstrich" in German Word.
You can remove all such tags without any problems in any format.


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Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 16:08
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I was assuming something like hyphenation ... Dec 20, 2009

but what threw me off-track, was the use of this tag between the words (!?) They are simply a nuisance, if you ask me - I have to repeat them in the target segments...

Thanks a lot to both and a nice day!

Vito


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 16:08
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Why repeating them in target segment? Dec 20, 2009

In any software I know a discretionary hyphen, even if present in text, will appear just when it comes to the end of line. Othewise they dissapear (well, Framemaker shows them for the designer on the screen, but of course does not print them). So why the heck should you keep 'em in the target? You will most certainly not get the "end of line" in Tageditor to place them right. So just delete them. And if you wanna avoid having them in source, just open the text in Notepad, search for one of those "dh:" tags, copy the pattern and then replace it by nothing. This way the source will already be free of them.

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Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 16:08
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
It's the QC in the TagEditor Dec 20, 2009

Jerzy Czopik wrote:
... So just delete them. And if you wanna avoid having them in source, just open the text in Notepad, search for one of those "dh:" tags, copy the pattern and then replace it by nothing. This way the source will already be free of them.


If I do not have them in the Target, it would keep complaining. If I put them somewhere, that at least the QC will just comment on tags that are really missing. I guess I could look at the TagEditor setting ...

Re screwing around with the source ... I got used to think of them as read/only, otherwise there's inconsistencies (in TM for instance, not to mention the client) and it all ends up in a hairball.

Regards and thank you!


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 16:08
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Do you have the original source? Dec 20, 2009

I mean Word, Pagemaker or whateveer?
If so, open that in the source application and replace all that sh... with nothing.
And about modifying the source: in that case I would really be brutal. If the customer does not understand, that discretioanry hyphens, kerning and whatsover used for a language specific formatting of the document has to be removed prior to the translation, then he will have to understand that later. All those tags are just balast for the TM, nothing more.


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 17:08
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
How about multiple files? Dec 20, 2009

Jerzy Czopik wrote:

I mean Word, Pagemaker or whateveer?
If so, open that in the source application and replace all that sh... with nothing.
And about modifying the source: in that case I would really be brutal. If the customer does not understand, that discretioanry hyphens, kerning and whatsover used for a language specific formatting of the document has to be removed prior to the translation, then he will have to understand that later. All those tags are just balast for the TM, nothing more.


How would you deal with a project of let's say 50 files. Would you remove the tag in the source files or in the ttx? And how to deal with it in Studio? This is an important issue.

Those tags are a nuisance, but also a blessing! Every time such a tag appears Trados does not recognise the segment as a perfect match, and the customers pays.

Regards
Heinrich


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 16:08
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Depends which software Dec 20, 2009

For Word I do not know at the moment, I would have to find a global Search&Replace function for multiple files. In Framemaker I would simply create a book of such files and do the S&R there.
In other cases: there are tools for S&R in multiple files, and as the dh: tag is an easy pattern I would remove it from ready ttx files. And then use them in Studio for example.
Of course they help - you do analyse the files against the TM before you remove the tags, of course


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Tom Fennell
United States
Local time: 09:08
Russian to English
+ ...
Discretionary hyphens do NOT always disappear Dec 21, 2009

Jerzy Czopik wrote:

In any software I know a discretionary hyphen, even if present in text, will appear just when it comes to the end of line. Othewise they dissapear (well, Framemaker shows them for the designer on the screen, but of course does not print them). So why the heck should you keep 'em in the target? You will most certainly not get the "end of line" in Tageditor to place them right. So just delete them. And if you wanna avoid having them in source, just open the text in Notepad, search for one of those "dh:" tags, copy the pattern and then replace it by nothing. This way the source will already be free of them.



Try OCRing a text into Word.....

Happily, they are very easy to remove through a global replace.


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Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 16:08
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Ho, ho ho ... hold it, Jerzy! Dec 21, 2009

I had a simple question and I got a straightforward answer. Much appreciated.

However....
And about modifying the source: in that case I would really be brutal. If the customer does not understand, that discretioanry hyphens, kerning and whatsover used for a language specific formatting of the document has to be removed prior to the translation, then he will have to understand that later. All those tags are just balast for the TM, nothing more.


Me Tarzan, you Jane. I translate. You shut up.

Even iffff my clients were that stupid, unterbelichtet, half my size (in the above case it's an office, full of ladies, so it would NOT be that ... size), I would never, EVER dare to think like this - forget about going as far as putting it down in writing.

You know, Jerzy - they are my customers.

As regards the other answers, they are appreciated as well, even if they are pretty much superfluous. I am flattered by so much help in connection with a simple grammatical question. To the moderator, who moved the question from a technical forum to SDL Trados: thanks, but no thanks, that was really unnecessary - you see, the question has 99% to do with the meaning of tags (in PageMaker, Indesign, RTF) and 1% (TTX) with Trados.

Regards

Vito






[Edited at 2009-12-21 10:20 GMT]


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 16:08
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Why Tarzan? Dec 21, 2009

No, I see things a bit differently.
If the customer provides me a text, which is badly segmented due to badly formatted source, I ask for either the source or a better segmented document.
If they deliver text with unnecessary tags, I ask them to remove those or simply explain I would remove them myself.
Why is this bad? I am not treating my customers bad, I just treat them exactly the same way they do treat me.
Of course I am a service provider and they are my customers, but it does not necessarilly mean, that I service and they give commands, why should this be so?


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