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Trados 2009 Studio - not an option for me
Thread poster: Gyula Erdész

Gyula Erdész
Hungary
Local time: 11:21
Member (2005)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Jul 6, 2011

Dear colleagues,

I have just read a forum topic about Trados 2011 ( http://www.proz.com/forum/sdl_trados_support/202594-trados_studio_2011.html ) where one of my colleagues asked why some people think Trados 2009 is too complicated and useless. Although I usually read the forum topics rather than contribute to them, in this case I simply cannot stand sharing my opinion with you.

Here comes several reasons why I think Trados 2009 is not my tool:

1.
In Editor you cannot select and process more than one segments in one step. By processing I mean setting segments as translated, copy source to target, etc.
2.
The QA module cannot recognize number faults if they occur in strings with letters (e.g. X23) , which is quite a common thing in technical translation. Just look at a connection diagram or a part list. In spite of all awareness, these are serious error possibilities.
3.
Since the QA module of Trados 2009 is highly unreliable (see previous point), you need to use a third party software (e.g. Apsic Xbench) for checking your translations. Let’s put generously aside the fact that you spent several hundreds of Euros for a proprietary software and you still need a free third party software to eliminate the mistakes and just concentrate on the drawbacks of this workaround. As there is no physical connection between the QA software and your CAT tool, you have got two choices:
a) you need to search the errors in the QA software and then correct them in Studio, which is rather time consuming, or
b) copy the target files, correct them in the QA tool and the replace the target files in the project folder with the corrected ones. And hope that you do not accidentally delete/overwrite your completed and revised translation.
4.
Trados 2009 does not set the punctuations marks to the target language. As a matter of fact, there is only one type of quotation mark in Editor, namely the English one: “ ”. If you need another type of quotes (e.g. in Hungarian: „ ”), you need to replace them at the end of the translation. And here comes the problem with batch replace:
5.
In case of a project with plenty of files, you cannot replace words or strings in all of the documents in one step, since there is no built-in tool for batch replacement. SDL provides a free tool called “SDL Batch Find and Replace” for this purpose, but it is useless if the files are not located in the same folder. Subfolders or complex folder structures are not handled directly.
6.
Autosuggest module could have been a real strength of Studio. Unfortunately it does not differentiate small and capital initial letters. Because of this, you need at least four extra keystrokes if you select an entry with more than one words from the Autosuggest windows at the beginning of a sentence (insert entry with small letter from Autosuggest -> go back to the first word of the inserted expression -> hit SHIFT+F3 for changing to capital letters -> go back to the end of the inserted expression -> continue the translation).
7.
The connection between Multiterm and Studio is not stable (4 Multiterm service packs in the last 1,5 years speaks itself). Until Multiterm SP4, you faced serious problems if you used Trados 2007 and Trados 2009 Studio on the same computer. Although I am not an IT expert, I simply cannot see the point of the standalone termbase module, especially if you are not able to guarantee the seamless compatibility between your OWN 2 pieces of software.
8.
If you filter the segments in Editor and then search for a word with CTRL+F, the software also searches within the hidden segments. You experience the same problem if you try to spell check the filtered segments only. Why is it so annoying for me? Let’s imagine a document with 25,000 CM and 450 NM.
9.
The edited segment is not centered in the Editor view. Although it is a minor problem, it clearly indicates that Trados Studio was not developed by translators who stare at the screen more than 12 hours per day.

Based on the above annoying phenomena and pretty time-consuming deficiencies, I dare say that Trados 2009 Studio is not the best and most convenient software for me and my translation projects. Please note that I am a technical translator with highly tagged texts and a somewhat unique target language (Hungarian).

Please feel free to continue my list based on your own experience.

Best regards,

Gyula


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:21
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Few added points... Jul 6, 2011

Gyula Erdész wrote:

Dear colleagues,

I have just read a forum topic about Trados 2011 ( http://www.proz.com/forum/sdl_trados_support/202594-trados_studio_2011.html ) where one of my colleagues asked why some people think Trados 2009 is too complicated and useless. Although I usually read the forum topics rather than contribute to them, in this case I simply cannot stand sharing my opinion with you.

Here comes several reasons why I think Trados 2009 is not my tool:

1.
In Editor you cannot select and process more than one segments in one step. By processing I mean setting segments as translated, copy source to target, etc.

Just click the number of the first segment to be selected, press and hold SHIFT and click the number of the last segment. Now, right click with the mouse pointer over the number column and chose the desired function from the context menu.

...
4.
Trados 2009 does not set the punctuations marks to the target language. As a matter of fact, there is only one type of quotation mark in Editor, namely the English one: “ ”. If you need another type of quotes (e.g. in Hungarian: „ ”), you need to replace them at the end of the translation.

You can use a button (a shortcut is also available) for „“ (German ones). Or you can create your own ones in file types. So not always that big problem.
And in fact I do type them at once: ALT+0132 for „ ALT+0147 for “ and ALT+0148 for ”

And here comes the problem with batch replace:
5.
In case of a project with plenty of files, you cannot replace words or strings in all of the documents in one step, since there is no built-in tool for batch replacement. SDL provides a free tool called “SDL Batch Find and Replace” for this purpose, but it is useless if the files are not located in the same folder. Subfolders or complex folder structures are not handled directly.

You have already found the OE S&R utility - that is fine.
And you are also aware of the possibility of merging files to a single file in one project?

I did not comment on your other points, as they are mostly true

Best regards
Jerzy


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Gyula Erdész
Hungary
Local time: 11:21
Member (2005)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Re: few added points Jul 6, 2011



Jerzy Czopik wrote:

Gyula Erdész wrote:

Dear colleagues,

1.
In Editor you cannot select and process more than one segments in one step. By processing I mean setting segments as translated, copy source to target, etc.

Just click the number of the first segment to be selected, press and hold SHIFT and click the number of the last segment. Now, right click with the mouse pointer over the number column and chose the desired function from the context menu.



Thank you for the hint. I did not know this.


4.
Trados 2009 does not set the punctuations marks to the target language. As a matter of fact, there is only one type of quotation mark in Editor, namely the English one: “ ”. If you need another type of quotes (e.g. in Hungarian: „ ”), you need to replace them at the end of the translation.

You can use a button (a shortcut is also available) for „“ (German ones). Or you can create your own ones in file types. So not always that big problem.
And in fact I do type them at once: ALT+0132 for „ ALT+0147 for “ and ALT+0148 for ”



Based on my experience, Quickinsert is not always available (e.g. in case of .sdlxliff files).
On the other hand, using ASCII codes for quotation marks and other language specific characters is not a convenient, elegant and permanent solution for this problem.

And here comes the problem with batch replace:
5.
In case of a project with plenty of files, you cannot replace words or strings in all of the documents in one step, since there is no built-in tool for batch replacement. SDL provides a free tool called “SDL Batch Find and Replace” for this purpose, but it is useless if the files are not located in the same folder. Subfolders or complex folder structures are not handled directly.

You have already found the OE S&R utility - that is fine.
And you are also aware of the possibility of merging files to a single file in one project?



If your project contains more than 50 .sdlxliff files with more than 200,000 words, gluing/merging them together is a suicide. Trados 2009 would not be able to handle the merged document.



I did not comment on your other points, as they are mostly true



Thank you for your honest words. Based your comments in other forum topics I do know that you prefer Trados. Fortunately preference does not mean bias in your case.

Gyula


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:21
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
Thank you too Jul 6, 2011

Well. I know very well indeed, that neither Studio nor Trados 2007 were perfect.
In fact Studio is far from being perfect, but from my point of view the other programs of that kind are much farther from the perfection though...


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Adam Łobatiuk  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 11:21
Member (2009)
English to Polish
+ ...
Solution to quotes Jul 6, 2011

Gyula Erdész wrote:


On the other hand, using ASCII codes for quotation marks and other language specific characters is not a convenient, elegant and permanent solution for this problem.



My elegant and permanent solution has been to modify the Polish keyboard layout with Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator so that „ is created with AltGr ;, and ” — with AltGr '. I've also made similar changes to make n-dashes and m-dashes more accessible. Works perfectly in all applications.


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MikeTrans
Germany
Local time: 11:21
Italian to German
+ ...
Will this also work to batch-confirm more segments? Jul 6, 2011

[quote]Gyula Erdész wrote:



Jerzy Czopik wrote:

Gyula Erdész wrote:

Dear colleagues,

1.
In Editor you cannot select and process more than one segments in one step. By processing I mean setting segments as translated, copy source to target, etc.

Just click the number of the first segment to be selected, press and hold SHIFT and click the number of the last segment. Now, right click with the mouse pointer over the number column and chose the desired function from the context menu.




Hi Jerzy,
an important question for me this one, as I don't dare to try it out and messing my TM.
Note: By 'confirm' I also mean updating the TM as it would with CTRL-ENTER.
Thanks to clarify on that one,

Mike


[Edited at 2011-07-06 14:37 GMT]


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:21
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
You can chante the segment status that way Jul 6, 2011

to any status you wish (confirmed, translation approved, signed off or rejected).
However this will NOT change anything in the translation memory in that very moment.
Segments are written in TM only when being confirmed with the corresponding button or shortcut. Changing the segment status influences the "Update TM" batch task.
For example, if I decide that I do not wish to have certain segment(s) in TM, I manually (right click) change the segment status to "sign-off rejected". When I then run the "Update main TM" batch task, such segments are omitted.


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MikeTrans
Germany
Local time: 11:21
Italian to German
+ ...
Update (project) TM Jul 6, 2011

Jerzy,
thanks for your answer. In fact I only come in such a situation (having to confirm more segments) when I have run the Spell Checker or made various Search/Replaces. But in that case the Update Project TM will do fine.

The only critic one could have is to say one must go through the menus, but as for me, I can survive that, although as always with Trados: Figuring things out for the first time can take sooooooooooooo long!

The Help System is surely complete, but should really point the user more efficiently to what he really needs. This is one reason I think people get lost in Trados.

Greets,
Mike

[Edited at 2011-07-06 15:59 GMT]


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:21
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
You will get lost in any complex software Jul 6, 2011

This is not just Trados. Same applies to InDesign, QuarkXPress or, to stay with CATs, to Transit or MemoQ. There will be different points where you get stuck, but you certainly will.

And as for Trados Studio: just ask. Usually the answer is just that far away.


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SDL Community  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:21
English
Just to join the discussion ;-) Jul 6, 2011

Hi Gyula, Jerzy et al.

I thought it would be useful to add a few comments on the pieces Jerzy left out, in case there is a misunderstanding that perhaps we can clear up. So....

Gyula Erdész wrote:
2.
The QA module cannot recognize number faults if they occur in strings with letters (e.g. X23) , which is quite a common thing in technical translation. Just look at a connection diagram or a part list. In spite of all awareness, these are serious error possibilities.


I think it would be worth clarifying what you have tried because the QA checker, particularly when using regex is quite powerful. If I take just your example of X23 for example and do this:


Then the lack of consistency between a code like X23 for example being in the source but not in the target is picked up immediately as you work... or afterwards as part of a QA check. In this example I have a missing letter, and also an ommitted letter and both are found:


This could be as complex as you like and you can export/import them for safe keeping or sharing with others. What example did you find missinig and I'd be happy to look at it?


Gyula Erdész wrote:
3.
Since the QA module of Trados 2009 is highly unreliable (see previous point), you need to use a third party software (e.g. Apsic Xbench) for checking your translations. Let’s put generously aside the fact that you spent several hundreds of Euros for a proprietary software and you still need a free third party software to eliminate the mistakes and just concentrate on the drawbacks of this workaround. As there is no physical connection between the QA software and your CAT tool, you have got two choices:
a) you need to search the errors in the QA software and then correct them in Studio, which is rather time consuming, or
b) copy the target files, correct them in the QA tool and the replace the target files in the project folder with the corrected ones. And hope that you do not accidentally delete/overwrite your completed and revised translation.


I'm hoping this comment needs no specific address at this point as it seems to be based on 2. being an accurate statement. But as I mentioned, we'd be happy to look at this if you can share the problems.


Gyula Erdész wrote:
5.
In case of a project with plenty of files, you cannot replace words or strings in all of the documents in one step, since there is no built-in tool for batch replacement. SDL provides a free tool called “SDL Batch Find and Replace” for this purpose, but it is useless if the files are not located in the same folder. Subfolders or complex folder structures are not handled directly.


I do have a question on this. You can add the sdlproj file to the search and all the sdlxliff files in the project irrespective of how nested they are will be used. You can then remove groups of files you don't want to search or search them all.


If this fails for you then I'd like to take a look at it. It's also possible to search for particular files and generate the list of files to work with this way.


Gyula Erdész wrote:
6.
Autosuggest module could have been a real strength of Studio. Unfortunately it does not differentiate small and capital initial letters. Because of this, you need at least four extra keystrokes if you select an entry with more than one words from the Autosuggest windows at the beginning of a sentence (insert entry with small letter from Autosuggest -> go back to the first word of the inserted expression -> hit SHIFT+F3 for changing to capital letters -> go back to the end of the inserted expression -> continue the translation).


Agreed on this one. We are aware of it and it is on our product backlog as work to do in a version of the next release.


Gyula Erdész wrote:
7.
The connection between Multiterm and Studio is not stable (4 Multiterm service packs in the last 1,5 years speaks itself). Until Multiterm SP4, you faced serious problems if you used Trados 2007 and Trados 2009 Studio on the same computer. Although I am not an IT expert, I simply cannot see the point of the standalone termbase module, especially if you are not able to guarantee the seamless compatibility between your OWN 2 pieces of software.


Good news on this one – 2011 will do precisely this with MultiTerm 2011 being completely independent of 2007/2009 with regard to dependencies that caused issues for some users in the past.

In terms of the standalone use... I think if you were to speak to a Terminologist then you would hear a very different view on this.


Gyula Erdész wrote:
8.
If you filter the segments in Editor and then search for a word with CTRL+F, the software also searches within the hidden segments. You experience the same problem if you try to spell check the filtered segments only. Why is it so annoying for me? Let’s imagine a document with 25,000 CM and 450 NM.


Spell check – in the next version we will offer an option to skip 100%/CMs/PMs so that the process does not run through everything you don't need.


Gyula Erdész wrote:
9.
The edited segment is not centered in the Editor view. Although it is a minor problem, it clearly indicates that Trados Studio was not developed by translators who stare at the screen more than 12 hours per day.


Many of our developers are not translators... but the Product Manager for Studio is. The research we carried out on this suggested that the majority of users find a 2/3 – 1/3 approach better because they typically want to see more context before than after. So if you use ctrl+enter as you work down the document you should see that this ratio is maintained. There are exceptions... so if you click in a segment at the bottom it will stay there until you ctrl+enter again and then it starts at the top, but on the whole this ratio is maintained.


That was our take on your points, but always interesting to hear your views and we do listen.

Regards

Paul


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István Hirsch  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:21
English to Hungarian
To 8 Jul 6, 2011

In my system (Studio 2009 SP3/Vista) neither searching nor spell checking is performed in the hidden part.

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Gyula Erdész
Hungary
Local time: 11:21
Member (2005)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you all for your inputs. Jul 7, 2011

Thanks again, I learned a lot from your comments. Now I try to sum up the answers that Jerzy and Paul gave to me for those who does not want to read all of the forum posts:

1, Multiple segment processing in one step.
It works, I was wrong. Sorry.

2, Number faults in strings with letters
Paul proposed a WORKAROUND with regex.
I still not understand why SDL did not include this very basic function in the „Check numbers” of the QA module. I am certain that almost every user knows "Check numbers" but only a few of them knows and understands "Regular Expressions".
A question to Paul: did you warn your customers that „Check numbers” function of the QA module does not cover mixed (number+letter) character strings?

3, QA module is unreliable, you need to use third party software for the check.
Paul simply swept away this issue by making issue no. 2 unsubtantial.

4, No localized punctuations
Jerzy proposed me two WORKAROUNDS (to use Quickinsert or to use ASCII codes).

5, No batch replace
Since Studio does not have such function, you need to use an extra application for this. Another WORKAROUND.

6, Autosuggest module - problem with capital and small initial letters.
This issue is known by SDL.

7, Unstable Multiterm, problems between Multiterm and Trados 2007/2009.
According to Paul, the next Multiterm will be better and fully independent from Studio.

8, Searching and spelling hidden segments
According to Paul, this problem will be solved in the next version.

9, Edited segment is not centered
I think Paul’s comment tells a lot about Studio 2009: „...There are exceptions...”.


After discussing these issues with you, I still feel that Studio 2009 is not a thought-out application and it offers rather workarounds than exact and planned solutions for very basic and everyday problems.


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Gyula Erdész
Hungary
Local time: 11:21
Member (2005)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I almost forget... Jul 7, 2011

to mention one of my biggest problem with Trados Studio 2009. Its performance/function is rather stochastic and accidental. A brilliant example:

István Hirsch wrote:

In my system (Studio 2009 SP3/Vista) neither searching nor spell checking is performed in the hidden part.


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SDL Community  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:21
English
Workaround? Jul 7, 2011

Gyula Erdész wrote:
2, Number faults in strings with letters
Paul proposed a WORKAROUND with regex.
I still not understand why SDL did not include this very basic function in the „Check numbers” of the QA module. I am certain that almost every user knows "Check numbers" but only a few of them knows and understands "Regular Expressions".
A question to Paul: did you warn your customers that „Check numbers” function of the QA module does not cover mixed (number+letter) character strings?


Hi Gyula,

I do not consider this a workaround. Just because you incude a numeric character in a string of text does not make the string something that should be checked as a number. A simplified example could be this (although I think X23 falls into the same category):

secure : written as s3cur3 as a password suggestion.

This is hardly a number and I would not expect the "Check numbers" feature that is used for real numbers to pick it up. But you could still use the QA checker to find this and make sure that the target was copied exactly the same way. The problem of course is that how does Studio know what pattern to flag an error for and what pattern to ignore?

More importantly the number checker knows that 2.312,4 should be 2,312.4 and it also knows that if you ommitted a number in the target that was in the source then it should be there for example. But how would it know the rules for checking a pattern that was alphanumeric and how would it know that you really wanted to check everything rather than just some things.

In my opinion this is not a workaround, rather a more complicated scenario than simply checking numbers. The solution we have provided for this is flexible, and whilst Studio is not a dedicated QA Tool I do think it is capable of doing a good job.

Regards

Paul


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Gyula Erdész
Hungary
Local time: 11:21
Member (2005)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Complicated? Jul 7, 2011

The problem of course is that how does Studio know what pattern to flag an error for and what pattern to ignore?


Hi Paul,
This issue could be solved within 2 minutes by adding an extra subroutine to the “Check numbers”. In addition of the other useful functions of the “Check numbers” tool, this subroutine would examine and compare the number characters of the source and the target segment:

e.g.
Source: X2CG23
2 x 2
1 x 3

Target: X2CG13
1x1
1x2
1x3

If there is deviation between source and target counts -> error.

Kind regards,

Gyula


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