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Untranslateable names in SDL Studio 2009
Thread poster: John Fossey

John Fossey  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 20:03
Member (2008)
French to English
Aug 9, 2011

One of the most common untranslateables are proper names. Some CAT tools recognize them because the first letter is capitalized. In Studio 2009, I have yet to find a way to get the placeable tool to recognize proper names as untranslateables. Is it possible? It would save a considerable amount of time.

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SDL Community  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:03
English
Add them as variables Aug 9, 2011

Hi John,

You can use the variables list in the Language Resource Templates for this. Whatever words you add to this list will be recognised as nontranslatable and are easily added to the translation with a shortcut.

http://producthelp.sdl.com/SDL%20Trados%20Studio/client_en/Ref/U-Z/Variables.htm

Regards

Paul


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John Fossey  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 20:03
Member (2008)
French to English
TOPIC STARTER
Sorry if I didn't make it clear. Aug 9, 2011

Sorry if I didn't make it clear. The point is for the CAT tool to recognize them as untranslateables - that's where time is saved.

If the translator has to recognize proper names and enter them as a variable it will involve much more work for the translator, not less, unless the proper name appears a great number of times in the document. It won't help for proper names that only appear once or a few times.

I take it from your answer that, no, its not possible for Studio 2009 to recognize proper names as untranslateables on its own.


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SDL Community  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:03
English
You were clear... Aug 9, 2011

Hello John,

As I imagine you are aware this is a very complex area. Proper names primarily are place or person names and their exact form is language-dependent. This means we'd need language-specific rules for their recognition as well as for their auto-localization.

This isn’t a trivial task. If we could treat all proper names just like other auto-localizable placeables (numbers, measurements, etc.) it would increase leverage, but due the difficulties and the variation across languages I don't know how comprehensively this has been handled by any tool.

On the recognition side, it’s not only first and last names which would need to be recognized, but also gender-specific titles, name suffixes, academic and professional titles, noble titles, and the like. All this potentially in multiple scripts (Latin, Cyrillic, etc.), depending on the source language. On the auto-localization side, depending on how far one wants to take it, it may include localization of titles (“Mrs. Miller -> Mme Miller/Frau Miller”) and several other issues, all of which may be target language dependent.

Due to all this complexity this is a feature we don't have in Studio now... doesn't mean we won't in the future though. I'm told by people who know (thanks Oli for helping me with this response) that proper noun recognition was a big topic in computational linguistics, and still is, so it’s not a solved problem at all. In fact I think even linguists can't agree completely on what's a proper name and what isn't..!

So in short... no we can't do what you have asked for and the best solution would be to build up your database of variables in the language resource templates. These are reusable across projects so may become a useful resource over time.

Regards

Paul


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John Fossey  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 20:03
Member (2008)
French to English
TOPIC STARTER
Configuring untranslateable recognition Aug 9, 2011

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. In this case, since the file I'm working on is a record of meetings with many proper names, I've gone back to using the other CAT tool for this project. I was just losing too much time having to retype or copy/paste all the names.

In that tool, there are a variety of options provided to configuring placeable recognition, including FirstCap, AllCaps, between different kinds of brackets, Contains a choice of characters such as hyphens, etc., in addition to the usual numbers, etc. Obviously that's a solution oriented to European languages, but giving the user the ability to make some customized configurations for recognition could eliminate having to make all the rules in advance. A solution that took care of most cases would help, even if it didn't work for every case.


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SDL Community  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:03
English
Custom Placeables Aug 9, 2011

Hello John,

Indeed, I think it would be nice to be able to define custom rules for this and would get around the sort of autolocalized solution we discussed. I am aware of a few tools that give you this flexibility... maybe one we will introduce in the future too.

Regards

Paul


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xxxyanadeni  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 20:03
French to Russian
+ ...
regex? Aug 10, 2011

Would a regex be of any help here?
Like [space][uppercase A-Z and some code that would refer to some number of characters to the next][space]

Sorry, I don't master regex syntaxis yet, but I'm interested in its possibility of application to such cases. Try to translate it to the correct code.


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Richard Hill  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 19:03
Member (2011)
Spanish to English
shortcut for adding to variables list Aug 10, 2011

SDL Support wrote:
and are easily added to the translation with a shortcut.
http://producthelp.sdl.com/SDL%20Trados%20Studio/client_en/Ref/U-Z/Variables.htm
Paul


Hi Paul,

I was looking through the day's posts and came across this one, which brings me to ask you where I can find or how do I set up the shortcut for adding words to the variables list? I followed the link you posted, looked in the Keyboard Shortcuts list and opened the Help window in the Variables List editing window, and right clicked a source word, but couldn't find the corresponding shortcut.

thanks

rich


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John Fossey  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 20:03
Member (2008)
French to English
TOPIC STARTER
Regexes would do it Aug 10, 2011

Yana Deni wrote:

Would a regex be of any help here?
Like [space][uppercase A-Z and some code that would refer to some number of characters to the next][space]

Sorry, I don't master regex syntaxis yet, but I'm interested in its possibility of application to such cases. Try to translate it to the correct code.


Brilliant idea. SDL Studio 2009 already uses regexes in setting segmentation rules. A regex such as \b[A-Z][a-z]+\b would do the trick and be similar to a FirstCap placeable rule. Unfortunately the Variable list doesn't seem to recognize regexes. Now if SDL could open the Variable list to recognize regexes it would solve it.

[Edited at 2011-08-10 10:44 GMT]


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FarkasAndras
Local time: 02:03
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Low-hanging fruit Aug 10, 2011

SDL Support wrote:
This isn’t a trivial task. If we could treat all proper names just like other auto-localizable placeables (numbers, measurements, etc.) it would increase leverage, but due the difficulties and the variation across languages I don't know how comprehensively this has been handled by any tool.

On the recognition side, it’s not only first and last names which would need to be recognized, but also gender-specific titles, name suffixes, academic and professional titles, noble titles, and the like. All this potentially in multiple scripts (Latin, Cyrillic, etc.), depending on the source language. On the auto-localization side, depending on how far one wants to take it, it may include localization of titles (“Mrs. Miller -> Mme Miller/Frau Miller”) and several other issues, all of which may be target language dependent.

Due to all this complexity this is a feature we don't have in Studio now..


It's not as complicated as you're making it out to be. \b[:upper:][:lower:]{3,}\b would do the trick just fine. It would work in 95% of cases, saving a lot of typing. I would hope that translators actually read the source text they are translating and are smart enough to not use the feature in the 5% of cases where it fails. Add an on-off toggle in the menu and everyone's happy.
It's a trivially simple feature to implement, I don't know why it hasn't been done.


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SDL Community  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:03
English
Nothing is that simple... Aug 10, 2011

FarkasAndras wrote:
It's not as complicated as you're making it out to be. \b[:upper:][:lower:]{3,}\b would do the trick just fine. It would work in 95% of cases, saving a lot of typing. I would hope that translators actually read the source text they are translating and are smart enough to not use the feature in the 5% of cases where it fails. Add an on-off toggle in the menu and everyone's happy.
It's a trivially simple feature to implement, I don't know why it hasn't been done.


Hi Farkas,

We are talking about two things now. I was refering to Autolocalization and handling of Proper names without setting up any custom regex expressions.

You are talking about user defined stuff.

Personally I like the approach to use regex as it is a lot more flexible and will allow those users comfortable with regex to do a lot more than just handle Proper Names... but nothing is a trivially simple feature unless you consider it as a standalone application

Regards

Paul


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FarkasAndras
Local time: 02:03
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Talking about two things Aug 10, 2011

SDL Support wrote:

We are talking about two things now.


No we're not.

SDL Support wrote:
You are talking about user defined stuff.


No I'm not. I only included a regex in my post to illustrate the simplicity of the criteria that the programmers at SDL would need to use.
Adding support for user-defined regex-based placeables would be nice as well, but the userbase of that feature would be minuscule compared to the number of people who would use a predefined "Proper names" placeable feature. I could see it being used in software localization projects so that string IDs and similar codes can be recognized as placeables, but that's a niche use case.

SDL Support wrote:
I was refering to Autolocalization

You were, but that's not really the topic of this thread. Proper names don't normally need to be localized, that's the whole point.


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John Fossey  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 20:03
Member (2008)
French to English
TOPIC STARTER
Keep it simple Aug 10, 2011

FarkasAndras wrote:

Adding support for user-defined regex-based placeables would be nice as well, but the userbase of that feature would be minuscule compared to the number of people who would use a predefined "Proper names" placeable feature.


Just enabling regex-based placeables in the Variable list, along with a Help button that gives some suggested regex configurations for different uses would go a long way for users that don't want to write their own regexes. One step further would be a button that would populate the field with the predefined configurations.


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SDL Community  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:03
English
Job application is in the post ;-) Aug 10, 2011

Hi Farkas,

I don't think I entirely agree with you that we are talking about the same thing, but you are correct in that this would be a simple approach that would catch many cases... and I'd like to see us do it too.

It wouldn't handle auto-localization/auto-substitution and this is where I was coming from... despite the title. Source languages that that don't use capital letters for nouns, titles, gender specifications, non tokenizeable languages for example are all things where this starts to get a little trickier.

But you're right, a regex approach that users could tailor to suit their particular language and needs would catch a lot... and would prevent bug reports where the problem was the creation of the regex and not our software

Maybe we'll see this come in a future release... or when you join the development team

Regards

Paul


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SDL Community  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:03
English
Shortcut for adding variables to the translation Aug 10, 2011

rich. wrote:

SDL Support wrote:
and are easily added to the translation with a shortcut.
http://producthelp.sdl.com/SDL%20Trados%20Studio/client_en/Ref/U-Z/Variables.htm
Paul


Hi Paul,

I was looking through the day's posts and came across this one, which brings me to ask you where I can find or how do I set up the shortcut for adding words to the variables list? I followed the link you posted, looked in the Keyboard Shortcuts list and opened the Help window in the Variables List editing window, and right clicked a source word, but couldn't find the corresponding shortcut.

thanks

rich


Hi Rich,

I think I said "... added to the translation ..." and not "... adding words to the variables list...", but this would also be a great solution to easily adding more resources to something you do a lot of.

So what I meant was that you could, after adding your variable, easily add the variable to your translation through the use of a shortcut. All recognised variables would be coloured with the blue underline. This is Johns problem, because he has so many different ones he would spend too much time adding them to the list. If they were recognised in the first place through one of the mechanisms discussed here it would be better.

Regards

Paul


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Untranslateable names in SDL Studio 2009

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